That will put paid to quality of service as civilian crews will not be of same calibre as trained service crews.

Also the cost will be astronomical. Might stop folks phoning for help when they have got themselves in a mess through sheer inability.

Trouble is the really necessary rescue operations at sea or in wilderness, whiteout conditions, are far more likely to lead to loss of lives.

It downgrades the diligent work of current voluntary mountain rescue teams who struggle to answer demand from the folks who venture where they shouldn't and haven't the training or experience to realise that mountain paths are not for most of these everyday trippers!

Am I right in thinking that quite a lot of rescue work - in northern Scotland for example - is already done by private firms rather than RAF & Navy?

Just a small correction - it has not been announced that RAF Lossiemouth will close, although it is feared that it could and there is an active campaign to save it.

Technically, it has not been announced that RAF Kinloss will close either, although I think it is accepted that the decision not to replace Nimrod will mean Kinloss ceases to be an RAF base.

We await the forthcoming changes with interest - we recognise that the Sea Kings are old and sometimes unreliable but we do receive a very good service from the RAF and RN at no cost to the public (they undertake civilian rescues as an alternative to training flights which they would have to do if they were not being tasked to incidents).

The new aircraft are larger and can carry more rescuers and casualties in greater comfort but we understand that they do create a much greater downdraft. This means we will need to take even greater care when we are being blasted by the 60 mph downdraft on some very exposed crags in the mountains. We will really need to train with the new aircraft before we can really fully comment on their abilities, however it is crucial that the service is as good if not better than we currently have. Around 10% to 20% of the 600 rescues we carry out in the lake district require support from helicopters with winch capabilities in order to get the seriously injured or medically unwell casualties to the hospitals for life saving treatment.

Richard Warren
Chairman Lake District search and Mountain Rescue Association (LDSAMRA)

LDSAMRA is the umbrella organisation representing the 12 rescue teams in the lake district (450 unpaid professional team members on call 24/365)

Hello Granny walker can you please explain how civilian crews are not as good as military?

To Granny Walker -

How are civilian pilots not as good as military pilots? You seem to indicate that civilian pilots are not trained......."civilian crews will not be of same calibre as trained service crews"

Well Granny Walker, might I suggest you never ever go flying, because obviously no civilian pilots are trained.

May I also make mention of the number of ex military aircrews who are part of the civilian SARH provision? Are they trained? Civilian trained SAR personnel are extremely well trained. Please revisit your opinions, and carry out some relevant research.

Granny Walker,

what a load if inaccurate unresearched rubbish.

Oh dear, up in arms already!
Rather than flying, I shall make sure not to get stuck on any crags or in a big avalanche.
Let's just say civilians need to set out their case in great detail, then. See careful comments from others involved in rescue on ground.

Gents,
Before you crucify Granny; I think the point he is making is that although the crews are trained it is a well known fact that with the constraints of business and financing the civilian's do not have the same ethos of training as their military counterparts. This of course is because there is always a bean counter looking at the numbers and not at the skills. The military is (was) not in the habit of counting numbers and for this reason the training is adequate... The military often over trains and over engineers and by default this results in a well rounded package that is unlikely to run as well with civilian management at the helm!!!
This is of course my interpretation of Granny's point but I think it's what was meant.

Thanks for rescuing the provocative comments Granny made. Much better put and well explained. That civilian flyers are so put out suggests a nerve has been touched.

Not even sure what SHE meant, but the public has not heard of these civvy rescuers. Apart from the training, the financing brings real worries. How will it be charged? According to difficulty of rescue?

The outdoor folk who volunteer their time and maybe their lives in conditions that fair weather folk can only imagine, do it, as stated above, because they offer genuine selfless service.

I have always understood the service personnel do it for similar reasons, as well as keeping them on their toes, in the technical sense.

There's a hell of a lot to sort out to give the same confidence in what might be in future.

Winch Man lands exactly on the spot!

The ethos of our present system is service.

The ethos of a privatised system will be normal business practice which is dictated by the bean counters. You should expect them to seek to maximise revenues and minimise costs.

Will the new helicopters be equipped with chip and pin?

With the military element outta the SAR world, what's gonna happen if the civilian workers strike, is the country gonna have zero SAR for days on end.. Westlands proposal of upgrading Seaking MK6's to MK3A's is a very cost efficient option, and would make the Seaking an even more reliable helicopter.

Last year between RAF Lossiemouth SAR And RNAS Prestwick SAR they assisted in in over 500 rescues, so i believe the Seaking with upgrade has many more years left in them.

Again don't have a clue. Lol. Its so funny. People don't get charged by the coastgaurd when they get rescued!

I have no problem with people being against civil SAR as long as they have valid arguments. So far iv not heard any. in the coastguard at the end of each month we have training hours left over and it's not through lack of trying!

Why do you not hear about coastguard rescues as much as RAF or RN, well there PR dept is better!

Oh and sorry Winch man, What ethos are you referring to?

So Granny Walker, John O and Winch Man;

What you are saying is that Civvy MRT persons can have "The Ethos", the military have "The Ethos", but no one else can and does?

What utter rubbish. I know many people, both civil and and military who are willing to give up time and effort to do good for others.

Military pilots and winch operators are paid, as are civvies. So what? What's the relevance?

As for paying for a rescue, why shouldn't the person? After all, it's yours and mine taxes currently paying for it. This is what happens in many other countries that are not as skint as we are.

I think you will find that anyone involved in rescue or lifesaving capabilities will first and foremost put themselves in a situation to save lives at the risk of their own.

Just to throw a little controversy into the mix, let's recap some of the recent stories about the 7/7 incidents - rescuers not allowed/not wanting to enter a zone because of H&S protocols...

I have not heard of that about the Voluntary or Military teams at work in the mountains or at sea.

Will a civilian service be focused on saving lives or adhering to H&S?

Good to come out of this - maybe more work for my kind in delivering relevant training to folk who head to the hills or onto the water. Less crowding in the hills. A decrease in the erosion of our wild areas.

Will the introduction of Insurance services be a bad thing, maybe not, the UK has a history of free access and, self reliance and a pioneering spirit when it comes to Climbing, Sailing and generally Expeditioning - something an insurance scheme would go against. But this is a weak argument for not introducing such a scheme. When I ski or climb abroad I get insurance to protect me in the case of accident - seems a judicious thing to do when the cost of rescue and repatriation is out of my salary league... I'd be happy to do the same here, so long as the premium went to the rescue services not to the underwriters.

I think confidence in a service would require a little while to develop if the focus moved from Military to Civilian - maybe there should be a Pilot scheme (pun not intended).

Scottish mountain rescue teams have been assisted by Coastguard helis operated by Bristows and latterly CHC - which is part of Soteria - for many years, without a problem. A lot of the pilots are ex-Raf or RN. The state will probably have an annual contract price rather than pay by the shout. But there's obviously the chance that a future cash-strapped government will wonder whether there's a way of recouping that cost.

They'll find though that the single SAR service will make it more complicated. Easy enough to insist that yachties insure against the cost of needing rescue. Possible - although slightly more difficult - for climbers or hang-gliders. Difficult for walkers - what do you do about the person who takes off up the path just out of interest, and breaks an ankle just beyond the range of the ambulance? And surely totally impossible for the kid blown out to sea in their toy rubber dinghy. That's unless the world really has turned on its hinges and we're all required to carry comprehensive public liability because the emergency services have all been privatised...

You mean a pilot project like the 4 Civilian MCA bases that have been operating in some cases for 20 years? With one Stornoway regularly doing rescues in mountain areas.

Wow - It has been a long time since there has been such a response to a grough article - as a volunteer rescuer I have to admit to being quite relieved that we can still do our job regardless of funding constriants, regardless of weather and, more importantly, regardless of H&S restrictions. That is the beauty of volunteer status. Also interesting that H&S protocols and risk assessments actually came up when teams were rescuing in Cockermouth Floods - the Fire & Rescue Service asked for a completed risk assessment before they wanted the teams to go in - The teams were actually working way before the Fmajor flood arrived and it won't come as a surpirse that the the volunteer teams actually do risk assessments on the move - the question we normally ask, in the following order is (1) "am I in danger and can I manage it with my personal skills and experience?"; (2) "is the team in danger and can we manage it with theresources and skills we have?"; (3) "is the casualty at real risk and can we help?"

I have to say that the word H&S and bean counters are possibly the areas that could give us the biggest issues from a privatised service.

We carried out a rescue on the side of Scafell Crags a couple of weeks back and if you watch the video (google wasdale rescue and look at videos (9 October Part 2 - 20 seconds into it). You will notice that the Sea King has to make an emergency fly away as the power needed to keep the aircraft in the air suddenly rocketed due to downwind. I spoke to the winch operator after the rescue and the radio comms in the cab were somewhat non PC. However, the point I would make is that the RAF crew from Leconfiled did a great job and actually tried one more time - I am not sure I would have wanted to be our team doctor who was winched up after this fly away.

Question is - how far will a civilian crew push their engines / flying envelope before they back off.

Now before everyone comes in and writes 'shame on me' for suggesting that the RAF military might be less risk averse than the paid civilian teams, H&S does have a place in search and rescue and it is good when it is adopted pragmatically but sometimes there is a risk of it having a detrimental impact on the outcome.

These are my personal views as a local MRT member and do not necessarily reflect the views of all.

Regards and keep the debate going

Richard Warren
Wasdale MRT

You would probably find that the new S-92 might not have had to flyaway as the power margins are much increased! However you will find that CiviSAR crews push the aircraft as much as Mil crews. A few years back in a S-61 a civi SAR crew tried several attempts to reach a injured walker on a mountain after 3 or 4 attempts in the downdrafting air (at night) and low on fuel they had to abort. Downdrafting air if strong enough will adventualy beat any helicopter but as has been shown on at least one job a sea king could not have completed the job due to the power requirements (St kilda).

As has been said allot of the crews are ex mil but some are not. This mix of have beens and have nots brings a good balance to the Civi system.

It seems that CiviSAR you have insider knowledge, and I'm sure no one will doubt it, but some of your responses are be-littling. No offence meant by the way...

Most people, even those in the know will only think of Military crews and the Volunteer MRT's when it comes to mountain rescue - you will have to excuse our lack of knowledge in all things SAR.

Most people will only think of Military SAR for those emergencies at sea (airborne) and the Lifeboat crews (water borne), excuse our lack of knowledge again.

Constructive and informative post s like your last one:

'You would probably find that the new S-92 might not have had to flyaway as the power margins are much increased! However you will find that CiviSAR crews push the aircraft as much as Mil crews. A few years back in a S-61 a civi SAR crew tried several attempts to reach a injured walker on a mountain after 3 or 4 attempts in the downdrafting air (at night...'

are more helpful in expanding our knowledge and understanding.

I believe it will take time, on the part of us civi's, to gain confidence in civilianSAR (airborne) before the same level of respect is given as that to the Military crews. Not through lack of ability, but through a documented and visible presence.

Fair point adventurer, however all I'm trying to do it bring some balance to the constant belittling of civilian helicopter SAR crews. Very few of our jobs make headline news (not as good a PR department) but we just get on with it.

However we were all expecting bad press from this announcement and have not been disappointed.

If you ask any of the MRT's in the north west and ask what there thoughts are on the coastguard helicopter crews then I'm hopefull that they would give you nothing but positive thoughts. We are always happy to train with any agency/group that we regally work and activly encourage them to request more training if they want it.

However this dosent stop the occasional problem such as a crew being told that "you do it diffrently that the military", the three recently ex mil members of that crew took exception to that and pointed out they all became civilians in the last two years!

All we ask is give it a chance and don't jump to conclusions!

Cheers

CiviSAR,
sorry if I've rubbed you up the wrong way here! Perhaps I should clarify further; ethos is just a word I used... It's in the military book of big Bingo words!!! My point still stands as above but my comments were directed more at the civi style of management than at the operators (you are one I presume?).
We, the operators, are all 'can do' people by nature and no one is denying that but in my opinion it is going to be a lot harder to run SAR as a whole, as a civi business, than it would be to keep it military.

Either way... Here's to interesting times ahead!

And as I said, the public view the big guns, like RBS in the consortium taking over this operation, as I understand it, as nothing but trouble for those in trouble and their rescuers too.

Don't worry lads, I am really a Granny, and short of having a heart attack while padding along at snail's pace, on my occasional explorations off the path, your services are hopefully not going to be required.

To end this interesting thread very much on a positive note, my colleagues in Scotland who use the services of both the civilan SAR as well as the military would appear to be supportive of the change.

So all I can say is that we look forward to training with the new crews and aircraft with a very open mind. We are reasonably relaxed about it as the bulk of our rescues are out of reach of helicopters anyway, due to the weather conditions we work in. We would only be concerned if the new arrangements bring additional problems.

Merry Xmas to you all including Granny Walker (I am a Grandad too but it has never held me back on the fells and I am sure the same can be said for you)

Richard
Wasdale MRT