When I read about these kinds of incidents it just increases my admiration for Mountain Rescue units.

The temptation to let out a **** you!! must be overwhelming (or at least it would be for me) coupled with "well, you can bloody well stay up there, then!)...

Flipping heck. The MRT should issue them with an invoice for the cost of this.

I cant believe the attitude of these people.
I'm sure MRT have better things to do on a Saturday night than turn out for Irresponsible people.
Some Dad.

Unbelievable....!!!!

Should be included in the next MRT booklet as an object lesson in how not to do a walk - with the names of the participants included. Followed by an invoice for the costs.

Name & Shame!!

Shame on them all - incidents like this make me angry! Its a pity that the rescue team involved can't charge them for their time, they'd certainly think again if they thought it would hit them in the pocket.

In reply to Steve Tupper ,unfortunately this type of incident is only too common and despite pleas by Teams for people to learn how to use a map and compass many people just think Oh we will be Ok and Ive got my mobile with me so I can call for help .Safety gear has never been more available and can be bought quite cheaply.Learning how to use it should be achieved by most people fairly quickly and may well save themselves and Teams a lot of effort and frustration.Perhaps charging guide fees for lost walkers should be revisited but Iknow most rescuers are still not keen on the idea.Bill Pattison MBE.Retired WMRT Team Leader 22yrs.

They should have left them up there. It would have served them right.

Morons!

Thats awful who could leave there children alone on a mountain! My son and I go alot n by the sounds of it he would do a better job of looking after a group and hes 7! He done pike last year and loved it! Well done mountain rescue your amazing! X

Well done to MRT for their help and patience - I hope the father concerned reads this and feels suitably ashamed of himself. What an idiot how could he leave his family in danger?

What a staggering lack of respect for the inherent dangers on a mountain. Bet the mountain rescue team could've throttled the father! Name and shame I say.

what an unbelievable attitude to have, they should all be ashamed of themselves, whenever I hike up Snowdon it's still always amazes me the amout of people in shorts t shirts and sandles wandering around like its a local park.

do you think a higher number and availability of guides would reduce the amount of callouts per year, if we look abroad, new-to-mountain tourists wouldn't ascend a hill without a guide maybe we could organise something like that?

As Albert Einstein said...'There are but two infinites. The universe and human stupidity....and I'm not sure about the universe!'

Why not make the paths way marked like in Europe. At least if they had descended to at least a marker they would have followed the markers down.
Just red/white flashes of paint not an eyesore but great to follow.
Also there is a total lack of signs in the Lakes, just small signs would help their situation, although they were totally unprepared.

Nathan there are plenty of guides available the going rate is around £120 for a group.
This is the technicaly the hardest of the 3 peaks (not sure they are 3 peakers in this case)
Its always underestimated.im beginning to think there should be some levy on people as mr is provided by volunteers who have to miss work to go to call outs.
Ian
MR and guide
Www.everythingoutdoors.co.uk

I work on Scafell Pike as an ML on a fairly regular basis, all year round.
I inevitably end up with "hangers on" attaching themselves to my client groups, even on clear days in summer, usually they are descending from the summit, can't use a map and compass and are worried about getting lost.
I have heard many of them comment to my clients " Is'nt it great, having Guides up here to get you down safely"
Bearing in mind that my clients are paying for the pleasure of having a Guide, it does not usually go down well.
In winter.... no crampons, ice axes, nav skills... I could go on, but the best encounter was a guy who asked me if I really needed crampons and an ice axe in full winter conditions?
His logic was that he had bought some "Four Season Boots" in Keswick and therefore did'nt need all that "other stuff"...

I'm not one for naming and shaming, but they do sound like they should be fined for just being bloody unhelpful.

I've said before these stupid idiots should be charged. Or the MRT. To say they they have no one available at the moment (which I know they would never say). These people think its there right to be helped down as Dave says yes the alps paths are marked but in general most hikers are competent hikers

The lax attitude towards the dangers on some of these mountains is astonishing. What a waste of manpower doing something that could have been easily avoided or solved easily.

I hope they at least made a decent donation towards the Rescue Team.

We were here early hours Sunday Morning and without doubt, I know that everyone of us, Leaders, Ground Support including all male and female 3P Challengers would have helped these clowns.

In my opinion it about time that Mountain Rescue had the power to bill for their services and clowns should be brought before the courts. "the father was not willing to re-ascend to assist in locating his daughter", Shame on you sir, you make my blood boil. Grrrrr

Name And Shame, plus bill them. who leaves their children on the mountain for some one else to rescue. Disgusting behavior.

Isn't it strange how people will pay to be members of a car rescue service (not expecting their cars to be rescued for free), but expect their own bodies and that of loved ones to be rescued as cheaply as possible (for free!)

I for one believe in charging for a MRT callout. But, I'm not a member of the MRT and it's their decision afterall that counts.

For those believing it should remain free, why not give up 4 hours per week of your wages to pay for rescues? That's what many of these guys and gals do, give up spare time and working hours for the above type of rescues.

Not an advocate of physical violence. However, I do believe the, so called father & 'team leader' deserves a slap.
His, inaction & consideration for others removed a priceless resource that could have, but thankfully didn't, lead to the suffering of others had there been a 'ligitimate' call out.
Well done to the MRT for their patience & tollerence.
I hope the 'Father' gets a sizeable bill for his efforts .... Or lack of!!

There is a fairly simple answer to this and that is to install something akin to a car parking meter at all the local carparks that, for a fee, dispenses a small leaflet explaining the dangers, equipment needed and also has , as part of the fee, an element of insurance.

I have not been up Scaffel you many years but I regularly walk in Snowdonia and it is rare, certainly on Snowdon itself, that there are not many hundreds of people climbing it.

A pound each would not make any difference to a walker but would provide much needed funds to MR and also might make the odd half-witted knuckle dragging moron have a thought about safety.

These idiots should be named and shamed and given a bill. Quite frankly if people are that dumb I would leave them out there. We do not need people like that adding to future gene pools

MRT - you hopefully have the fathers details. Can you copy this thread to him to show what we all think of the situation and PLEASE work on being able to charge idiots like that for your time.

My apology to the group of three mountain leaders who deserve recognition from the support they gave. One being a fellow team member from Wales.
Between them (with 30+ clients in tow), they found the lost couple, co-ordinated & administered first aid (mildly hypothermic was all) & brought them down the mountain, and relayed messages via their private radio connection to the Wasdale Team Leader near the bottom of the mountain. The groups leader on the summit spent a great deal of effort finding them then navigating safely back down the mountain from their position across what is recognised as a grim featureless plateau in difficult fog/cloud/rain. It is comforting to know that there are many mountaineers out there that help individuals and groups get back down off mountains before any ‘999’ calls are ever made. Self reliance and mutual support on the hills is something we all wish to see.

Interestingly the couple that were lost on the Pike and rescued were seen by the above rescue group on Snowdon the following morning.

Richard Warren
Wasdale MRT
(I wrote the press release)

ps – we had an internal discussion (on the way down from another rescue last night - Tuesday) over how best to get messages across to those who need to understand the basics of mountaineering and keeping out of trouble. It is fair to say that readers of grough are experienced, responsible and self reliant. Perhaps it is down to our national body (MREW) working with BMC and the national park authorities to work together to reduce the numbers of avoidable rescues?

They should be made to pay for the rescue, including time allocated, to their rescue.

Last time I was on Scafell Pike with a mate of mine we ended up hoovering up two groups of people - 5 in all who were lost in the fog at the top. The group of three were not in the first flush of youth shall I say and were not really fit enough to be up there. The woman in the team was apparently on the verge of calling the emergency services. They had come off the wrong side and got disorientated. This was despite having a map, compass and GPS with them! The other couple had just given up and were sitting on a rock until they heard the conversation we were having with the group of three and piped up "Actually we are lost as well". I think our descent time was increased by around two hours, by which time it was chucking it down with rain, when we could have happily been indoors by then!

Send them an invoice for wasting your time and skill

@Richard Warren

'ps – we had an internal discussion (on the way down from another rescue last night - Tuesday) over how best to get messages across to those who need to understand the basics of mountaineering and keeping out of trouble. It is fair to say that readers of grough are experienced, responsible and self reliant. Perhaps it is down to our national body (MREW) working with BMC and the national park authorities to work together to reduce the numbers of avoidable rescues?'

I believe it is up to the organisations you mention, plus MLTUK, MCofS, Scottish Mountain Rescue, SAIS, Outdoor media/magazines, Outdoor retailers, Schools, universities, youth groups, National trusts, employer work places...the list goes on!

Everyone has a part to play!

Those who have most contact with the inexperienced hill folk are best placed to increase education and awareness on the hills. No organisation can do this alone, I would like to see more interaction across the UK with the above groups and more.

It is now approaching winter on the hills with it's unique challenges, safety messages need to start soon and perhaps in publications/areas outside of the norm to get through to those who are not experienced/trained and are aware of forums such as Grough.

These people are a joke i see them on the fells every day no experience at all and basically not a care in the world for those people who have to take risks to go and rescue them, And with the onset of winter things will only get worse,More is needed to educate these people as to the dangers they may face whilst out in this type of enviroment.

There seems to be a rush to judgement. If the father was asleep in his car, who knows if he hadn't overstretched himself already , was ill, was INCAPABLE of going back up. The mist can come down very qucickly and if daughter and friend (both, I gather from another source, in their twenties) had become separated, it may have been the very first time that had happened to them. How many of us, hands on hearts can say we haven't had five minutes of terror because the party just seems to have disappeared...I certainly went through a period when I was developing cataracts when it was all too easy to lose people.

OK, it was selfish of the younger members to refuse to ascend to see if they could find more competent walkers, but they may not have been like the posters above, competent, rational and capable of reascending, they may have been scared witless.

Even after a round of Munros and Corbetts, and nearly all the Grahams, I still think "There but for the grace of god go I."

Thank goodness for MRT. Thank goodness that they can live through these situations and still go out another day. Daughter was rescued from a rock in the sea at 13, because as parents we hadn't drummed into her head that THE TIDE COMES IN, and had gone out in school break. When we gave MRT a cheque, we were told that some people don't even say "thankyou", because they are too ashamed of themselves to say anything.

It is about time that Rescue Teams realise that they have VOLUNTEERED for this workload and that this is the NATURE of mountain users in the UK - if they don't like it, quit. Easy.

There's no excuse for criticising people who've felt desperate enough to ask you for help.

We see very little safety and education information coming from the majority of teams in the UK. All we see is criticism after criticism.

Criticising casualties gets you nowhere and gives ammo to the Daily Mail the day they decide to call for a Victorian ban on mountaineering.

- a fellow MRT member.

Hamish MacInnes once said, "I don't consider it our place to stand in judgement of our fellows", when leader of the Glencoe team.

That quote dates back a number of years to when teams, in the main, went out to help fellow climbers who occasionally had a problem on the hill.

That situation has changed drastically with (as noted in other posts) the serious commercialisation of the activity.

Now everyone and their favourite aunty seems to think it is just fine to buy some kit (maybe) and head off up the nearest hill without having much of an idea how to use that kit or what hillwalking/mountaineering is all about.

The current debate seems to be about exactly 'who is it' teams are criticising.

I'm almost sure that team members are still happy to assist a 'fellow climber' but I'm not so sure that they are happy to be continually dragging the tourist lemmings off the hill.

Sitting in a comfortable chair it is easy to condemn the Dad who refused to go back up Scafell to rescue his children.
My opinion is that he probably made the right decision.
He had probably turned back because he was knackered and may well have been an additional casualty had he gone up again. Logically, a fresh team who knew the location of the lost walkers were likely to be successful with minimal risk.
The younger group who had gone on ahead were the ones at fault but young people make mistakes.
Once in a position where they ran out of energy and confidence I'm not surprised they stayed put.
Fortunately, Mountain Rescue doesn't descriminate between the clever, the inexperienced or the stupid.

"Fortunately, Mountain Rescue doesn't descriminate between the clever, the inexperienced or the stupid."

For how long I wonder?

I can see both sides of this debate I have seen people on Scafell in shorts and sandals. I have only been up there four times and on the last time from Great Langdale I abandoned it as the weather was turning nasty. I always take a large rucksack hoping that I won’t need sixty percent of the gear I am carrying. I take a map and compass plus two Gps,s with the route on and always err on the side of caution. I have nothing but admiration for the Mountain Rescue Team but isn’t it nice when they do find someone that is only lost and not injured.
I agree with Squiz "There but for the grace of god go I."