No, it was a case of not carrying spare batteries. Nothing to do with over-dependence on electronic gadgets.

No Chris, its a case of not knowing how to cope on a mountain - with or without electronic gadgets.

It quite clearly is a case of over-dependence on electronic gadgets (as per the article) with no "plan B" or even the equipment needed to quickly formulate a "plan B" i.e. no map. Presumably if you drop a GPS that could also leave you in a similar predicament?

I would tend to agree with Chris. If the lady had spare batteries, then the need for rescue would have been lessened, but it is true that you should also carry a map and compass and know how to use them. Basically, you can't blame the GPS, you have to blame the person.

How many of us have ended up in the wrong Cwm or Valley even with a Map, maybe in poor vis. Do we blame the map for this? What if your map blows away, do you carry a spare?

I use my GPS's all the time (Yes sadly I have 2) but still carry a map and Compass, oh and whistle, head torch, first aid kit etc, etc. It's all about planning and experience and knowledge.

Unfortunately, experience is what you get after you needed it :-)

It's great to take a handheld gps unit with you, I have one myself, but a paper map and compass (and the knowledge to use them) should always be in your pack. It's not like they add a lot of weight.

Chris is right.

As most times the person is the problem; why didn't she carry spare batteries or (for an iPhone) a recharger - which is cheap and affordable?

Why didn't she take a GPS *and* a printed map, as always the best course to take.
(And not forget the waterproof cover!)

~neil
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CEO RouteBuddy Ltd

You'd think that there's no limit to the ways in which folk can mess up but expensive electronic tat just seems to add to it. The Oggie team have seen more of human folly than most of us and you may want to heed their advice, Chris, if you're thinking of venturing on the hill.

We are in an age where people grow up with All this "Tech Support" and its taking over our thinking for us.
One day Paper Maps and the Skills required to use them will be a forgotton art.
I am a Qualified outdoor Group Leader, And I carry a GPS( with Spare Battery pack) as a back up to My OS map and Compass, I will continue to use and to teach the use of Map and Compass skills over GPS.

As a Instructor once told me Knowledge weighs nothing and is always with you

Lyndon
South Wales

gwyliwr,

I suspect Chris knows more than many as to what to do on hill or mountain. ;)

~neil
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CEO RouteBuddy Ltd

Neil, you forgot to mention the ability to use that printed map.

The promotion and marketing of GPS technology usually forgets to mention that a good understanding of maps and their use is also 'useful' on the hill.

Venturing onto a mountain with a GPS but without the many other skills that a mountaineer has is not sensible but that is, in effect, what non mountaineers are being encouraged to do.

I must say Chris, I'm surprised at your view on this. I have the greatest respect for your expertise in the mountains, but this is clearly a case of over-reliance on electronic navigation gadgets.
Granted, the lady would have been in a different position had she carried spare batteries, but going out without a paper map and compass as a fall back is not a great idea. What if have broken/lost? GPS and mobile phone apps are fantastic tools, but ones with built in, or loadable mapping software seem to encourage the 'non-carrying' of maps.
Personally, I prefer a basic GPS unit that give a position that you have to relate to ON A MAP. I notice the lady is local to the area.
Overconfidence perhaps?

The pro-technology contributors here appear to have a publishing or commercial vested interest.

The use of technology on the hill has its definite benfit. At one time or another the use of a map and compass was seen as "out there", in them days people with Margarets opinion would be saying, but your map could be wrong, how do you know your compass works? People need to learn to navigate using the wind, sun and stars. The thing is, GPS is so accurate in ALL weather conditions, you'd be an idiot to completely write it off, but equally you'd be an idiot for solely relying on it. You need to get a map and compass, learn how to use them and practice, practice, practice.

The use of GPS systems should be kept as a reserve for when the excrement really hits the fan, but also you should have practiced with it, found out how it works, realistic battery time (not the one quoted by the manufacturer as they're done in lab environments, I've been in -10 conditions where the quoted battery life has been nearly double the actual) just like you would with any aids - including a map and compass.

It takes skill, knowledge and experience to know when to revert to using GPS. Don't discount it though, its a proven life saver when used correctly.

A decent map and a compass and the knowledge of how to use them will not fail you. If you don't have these, make sure you're with someone who does. It really is mind bogglingly basic common sense. There are no excuses!

Margaret,

yes I did:
'As most times the person is the problem...' But didn't want to labour a point.

Nor am I pro-'technology' over paper; but I am pro 'common sense' - as are any others who are established in the outdoor field, whether in the business or not.

However, after your second post and if I put my company hat on, then I think we all have something to contribute. Yes we make maps, but then I go walking too - and others in the company run in the mountains.

Nor did I ask you to buy anything. ;-)

~neil
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CEO RouteBuddy Ltd

The Glyders are not to be taken lightly even with a map and compass. I take my hat off to the Mountain rescue who have to bail people out who are under equipped and lack a basic understanding of what they are doing.

Fair points - but why bother with your company hat.

gwyliwr, may or may not be aware of the 'personality' who he is giving good advice.

lets be clear here.. no one is saying gps units are a bad thing BUT they should only be used to compliment a physical map and an ability to read said map.

and Neil, by putting your company name on here you are subliminally asking people to buy stuff - either that or you put it to imply your opinion is more valid because you 'know your stuff'.

Neil, I too question your motives for putting your company name on your posts. I googled it just out of curiosity, and frankly, it's seems that the 'product' has room for improvement.(just google 'Routebuddy reviews"). There seems to be no mention on your site of the fact that electronic devices MAY fail, and there is no substitute for proper preparation/experience/training for an excursion, having a paper map, and the skills to use them.
That surprises me for someone that hints at being 'in the trade', and active outdoors....

Neil

I was taking the mickey.

Margaret has made the serious point. Outdoor gear manufacturers, the outdoor magazines and their writers have a vested interest in implying that to go on the hill you need to be festooned with a Christmas tree of gear (and don't forget the backup batteries, and the charger and the waterproofing) which will keep you safe whatever your lack of skills.

I'd rather listen to the Oggie guys who were out on the hill the other night.

I have to add to my previous post, given the last chap bought that was escorted down from Glyder Fach, It's also probably a good idea to carry a map of the actual area you are travelling in.
No substitute for a bit of common sense...

Quote Chris Lloyd of Oggie MRT:

" Mr Lloyd said 'rescuers are getting weary about answering calls from people who could and should be better prepared for their hikes into Snowdonia.'

He warned against depending on electronic gadgets in the mountains.

“People should have a paper map of the correct area, and by all means use the electronic equipment to check your co-ordinates, but don’t depend on it. "

This is from the people that you rely on to get you out of trouble, if it all goes wrong.

Sorry that this 'heavily' edited paper is still a bit long but I thought it may be interesting. It's by Julia Frankenstein, Psychologist at the University of Freiburg. Google her and I'm sure you'll find the full paper if interested.

“The concept of a mental map is widely accepted today. It’s not all in our heads, though: physical maps help us build cognitive maps.

If maps help us, what is the problem with GPS?

A lot: in my opinion, it is likely that the more we rely on technology to find our way, the less we build up our cognitive maps. Our brains act economically: they try to decrease the amount of information to be stored. That may be the unconscious appeal of a GPS, but it means we’re not pushing our brains to work harder.

But shouldn’t we just accept that GPS is a good substitute for old-fashioned maps?

No. Navigational devices can be time-savers, but they can easily become crutches.

It has been found that experience actually changes brain structures and that London taxi drivers’ internal navigational ability grew stronger with use. It therefore stands to reason that the process is reversible after disuse.

Navigating, keeping track of one’s position is a very challenging process for our brains. Stop doing these things and it’ll be harder to pick them back up later. How to avoid losing our mental maps? The answer, as always, is practice.

Next time you’re in a new place, forget the GPS device. Study a map to get your bearings, and then try to focus on your memory of it to find your way around.”

It is very easy for arm chair pundits and 'regular' or 'experienced' hill folk to pass judgement and say people should know how to use a map and compass before hitting the hills and if they don't know how to use them then they shouldn't be on the mountains in the first place.

These views are unfortunately unhelpful and somewhat out of touch with reality of inexperienced, untrained hill folk who do not benefit from our years of experience and training. We know that these incidents happen, we know the common causes for them so we should be spending our time trying to raise awareness of navigation and hill safety basics, providing help and support in increasing skills and getting through to these people before they hit the mountains, preventing or limiting incidents such as the above.

Perhaps volunteering our time instead of passing judgment on these incidents would be more beneficial. I enjoy spending time with inexperienced hill walkers and i am always fascinated by their preconception's and thoughts about what it is really like walking in the mountains. Weather, temperature, map usage (or lack thereof), terrain, clothing, equipment, etc. These are all areas we cannot assume that people will know about before going up the hills.

To say it a lot of it is commonsense is naivety on our behalf, if you ever lose empathy with someone who has had to be rescued due to a failed gps or because they wore trainers on a mountain then just think back to a time when you first climbed a mountain and weren't properly equipped, or when you made errors.

Help these people out by sharing your knowledge and skills!

Mountain Chap - I agree with your view that we should all be prepared to help beginners.

That was the way it used to be and I'm sure many of those commenting here have helped. I am always delighted if someone says, "what is all this navigation stuff about, can you help", then I will happily spend time with them on the hill.

The problem appears to be that currently (perhaps the modern way) people seem happy to head off up the hill without asking someone to help or even paying to go on one of the many courses that are available.

They probably wouldn't buy a hang-glider and throw themselves off a hill without seeking advice, so the question is why do they buy boots, jacket and a GPS then head off up a mountain.

As I wrote in another post; mountain rescue teams mainly used to assist fellow climbers who on occasion had a bit of trouble. Now they seem to have their work cut out rescuing the results of vigorous commercialisation of mountaineering that has developed over the past few decades.

Mountain Chap,
I agree with your thoughts. One of the joys of teaching in the outdoors is seeing that 'eureka' moment when the information sinks in. Perhaps I was a little harsh in blaming these incidents on lack of common sense. Mountain conditions, weather, terrain, and emergency procedures are things that we learn, rather than know already. What I was referring to is the forethought to recognise your own limitations, pack the right gear (including spare batteries, and not just for the camera), inform someone of your plan/route, and set off/return with time to spare. Etc. Etc.
These things really are common sense.
I also agree with Margaret about the marketing of outdoor kit. Companies sell gear backed with all sorts of claims and 'celebrity' endorsements, (super breathable, super grippy, ultra reliable yada yada...), but mostly fail to point out the limitations of having 'all the gear and no idea'.
It would be nice if the gear manufacturers made more effort to promote knowledge as much as the latest shiney kit. Not saying that none of them do, but it would be nice if they all did..
I'd love to see some of these manufacturers support the MRTs
in a bigger way in the future. It is a multi multi million pound industry after all...

I used to go walking with a friend who had a gps with him - He was always amazed how closely I could place us on a map and how accurately I could estimate our height.. It's practice though.. I wasn't born with a map in my hand.

Here's a novel idea.. Why don't the manufactures of said whizzy gadgets etc throw in a coupon for a free o.s. map with every purchase..

Shall we get the ball rolling with you routebuddy Neil??

I don't believe a map would have helped this lady.
She was clearly without any mountain experience and set out wholly reliant on her GPS. This had nothing to do with weather conditions or visibility either as "it was a lovely evening".
It may sound harsh but i think there was a laziness and general apathy in her approach to her predicament- almost like she surrendered immediately and phoned 999.
There are enough paths criss crossing the plateau, and common sense would tell you to retrace your steps or head downhill at the safest point.
Some good points made above.

Twodogsbob said:

"It would be nice if the gear manufacturers made more effort to promote knowledge as much as the latest shiney kit. Not saying that none of them do, but it would be nice if they all did..
I'd love to see some of these manufacturers support the MRTs
in a bigger way in the future. It is a multi multi million pound industry after all..."

If the Govt won't help MRTs by providing VAT relief on their purchases, perhaps gear manufacturers could sponsor their local team and agree to pay their VAT each year.

Just a thought.