your running off-roading, it should be free will to ride where ever in the country side. i should no i live in the country side, if your so concern about preserving the land, stop horses from shitting all over the paths and lanes and clear up the rubbish left be fly tippers. you'll never be able to stop us offroad riders, its a waste of land if it never gets used.

this is a waste of police time and effort its a load of shit!

ktm get some english lessons, thicko

does this off roaders include mountain bikers on footpaths

put them to work to repair the mess they make of the tracks and lanes and crush their vehicles.

We have off roader bikers in our part of Shropshire leaving the place scarred - and with local footpaths worn into v shapes. The attitude of the pro-off roader above screams out for more action nationwide to put these guys off the hill for good. KTM your swearing is another sign of the aggressive, immature behaviour and complete disregard for others I have witnessed from off-roaders - perhaps we can adapt the term 'petrol head' to one more appropriate for you lot?

Perhaps somewhere to ride legally would stop it? I have been having to travell up to 2 hours just to do a sport i love! Some piece of waste land with a track would be nice and would stop all this illegal offroad riding, its even a buisness oportunity.

Coming off west from the Berwyn i surprised a farmer who was slashing the tyres of a trailer ,why the offroader owners were up the hill .After speaking to him in cwmraeg (not bad for a saesneg )he told me how he loathed the idiots who tear up the ground ."how is it that my son rides a trail bike to get to the sheep ,and yet you cannot see his tracks ?" he asked .
So when ktm says he's from the country we all know that really he is not ,no matter what his address .The poor lad was probably never shown how to be responsible for anything ,otherwise he would know how to care for the land properly .

I am a motorcyclist. I have a bike made by KTM but the idiot who posted at the head of this string is NOT an example of the average rider.
All the people I ride with ride responcibly on legal lanes with road registered legal bikes. It really saddens me that we get tarred with the same brush as the few reckless and feckless idiots.
But having said that please remember that those who ride legally bring a lot of money to the area.
Walkers cost us all £millions each year in path repairs when they wear them out and they too cause huge amounts of damage to sensitive sites and wildlife but nothing is ever done to curb their use. The right to roam means they have too much to ever walk in one lifetime now, the coastal path and 100% of all rights of way, yet responcible and legal trail riders have less than 2% of the byway network and share that happily with everyone else.
At least this report mentions that there are legal lanes to use and I am glad of that. Please also remember that legal trail riders dont go "OFF ROAD" they have to stick to the unsurfaced lanes that are actually ROADs..hence the need for road legal bikes..
As for the idiots who ride where they should not on open land, footpaths and the sensitive areas like the Hill Forts mentioned in the article..well the sooner they are dealt with the better.

The chap who posted first on this item is a complete fool and i hope that anyone seeing him riding his bike illegally around the area report him to the authorities .

I like the gent above ride a road legal motorcycle on the legal byways that we have left to use around the country , i get outraged by mindless idiots who think they can ride where they like and give no thought to other users but this will never be sorted by ringing in registration numbers of motorcycles riding illegally as if they are not road legal then the majority dont have number plates attatched .

All the above will do is ailienate people towards the legal users in the area and belive me when the police are inundated with calls from the public about every rider in the area they will get fed up with responding .

Education goes both ways and perhaps it should be explained a little better to the ramblers that not every motorcycle you see in the countryside is an un- insured vehicle , most legal riders spend a lot of time and money keeping thier bikes in good road legal condition and paying for tax and insurance etc .

We as the legal users of country roads, be they surfaced or unsurfaced are like you , we are fed up of illegal use in any area of the country and im pretty sure that most of the people i ride with would also report illegal use.

Before you make the call just think about where you are on the map , is it a footpath , bridleway , restricted byway etc , just because you may be walking down an overgrown lane out in the sticks does not mean that the road has not got vehicle access , a lot of the places i ride are legal for me and others to use but because they get such little traffic down them they look more like footpaths , ive been stopped before by people who shout and ball about illegal use only to be shown they are standing in the middle of a LEGAL BYWAY and have no right to stop traffic by causing an obstruction .

Just a thought but pehaps it would be a good idea for the authorities and all legal users of the countryside to get together and try to sort out the problem of illegal use ..

Luckily most serious ramblers and walkers know where they are walking but people from outside the area may not!

Please dont belive that we are all the same as the idiot at the top , we dont all want to be tarred with the same brush !!!

Let me start by saying that the damage in the picture is obviously water damage. It's wrong to make out it was made by motorbikes.
I'm also another keen motorbike rider (road legal, even my competition bike). I ride the highways and byways of this fantastic island of ours because i love the countryside etc. One of the biggest problems though is we are slowly being hounded in smaller and smaller areas to ride. It's obvious that this then causes damage due to everyone being stuck in a small area.
If we could share the countryside we would all benefit from it. I'm also a keen walker and have seen times out on the hills where people have come unstuck and would have grateful for someone on a motorbike to turn up and offer to carry their gear for example.
As mentioned already the damage done by a lot of walkers is phenominal. Look around Snowdonia for example. Rock paths to stop the erosion which people dont like to walk on so you get erosion to the sides. Up towards Llyn Idwal is a good example of this. Last time i was up Tryfan i saw no end of rubbish and even where someone had been caught short and had a bowel movement (for want of a better description) and had just covered it in toilet roll for all to see. I know for sure this wasnt someone on a dirt bike. There are idiots in all walks of life and the best way to sort it is for us all to get together and work together instead of trying to ban everything and everyone that doesnt fit into a certain clique.

Of course walkers cause a degree of damage, and leave litter however this does not justify the damage that is caused by bikes and 4x4 legal and illegal. There is absolutely no justification for using modern vehicles on soft tracks and to fall back on the "we have a right to do it so we will" argument is trite. Motorised transport directly conflicts with the "quiet enjoyment" of the countryside.
Walkers and climbers or at least their representative bodies devote much effort to maintaining paths, clearing litter and educating members.

Off roaders as far as I am aware do very little, but this is perhaps not surprising as so many are motivated by the "look at me my car's muddy I am an off road outlaw and risk taker" kind of thing.

On the other hand this argument will run and run, we live in a crowded little island. But I for one will try and protect what wild(ish) areas we have left and resent the increased urbanisation of which off roaders are a prime example.

Please photograph and report those who behave illegally or disrespect other land users

Dave, you say "we have the right to do it so we will" argument is trite. As trite as right to roam then im guessing??? Or is there a hint of double standards?
As far as off roaders doing very little look up the TRF for one.
Regarding off road outlaw etc. Well that may be the case with a few but as usual you generalising the same as i could with walkers "all the gear, no idea, lets hang around and look cool in our gear but treat the countryside like its our playground suburbanites". Its unfair and not a valid argument. As i said before, all walks of life have their idiots and to judge the many by the few is plain stupid. It's as bad as saying all Muslims are suicide bombers and we all know how you cant get away with saying that.
By all means report people doing things illegally, we all agree with that but trying to remove other rights who are legal and above board because you just dont like it is wrong and plain bigotry.

I don't know why 'Dave' expects the countryside to be a quiet idil? It is a working space, not a theme park. Yes it is typically quieter than a city street, but might I suggest if you want genuine peace and quiet, you stay at home?

I find it somewhat ironic that those who complain about vehicles being used on Byways have almost certainly driven into the countryside themselves, before parking and going for a walk. The result in many places is car parks overflowing, and verges used as makeshift parking bays - often causing inconvenience to local traffic and particularly larger farm machinery.

Surely the endless stream of 'tourist' vehicles bumper to bumper on minor roads in and out of popular walking areas is no less of a menace than a handful of appropriate vehicles using the Byway network? Particularly as they tend to do so as part of an onward journey - this being the freedom using a motorised vehicle allows.

no way do I think the countryside should be a "quiet idill (sic)" Farmers and others who need to use machinery to work have a useful purpose, off roaders have none.

Yes I do drive to some parts of the country to walk, climb, and fish or to do nothing. I am also lucky enough to be able to walk from my house.

I'd rather a full car park than having to dodge 4x4 drivers and bike riders on tracks that were never intended for motorised vehicles.

My argument may be badly put but so far no one can tell me that off roaders are not selfishly pursuing their sport at the expense of other people.

What is the TRF?

I have a KTM.... but i am also in the TRF, i have only been on one ride with them so far but next Sunday I'm going along with many TRF volunteers to join a 'working party' at Pindale Quarry to 'put a bit back'. I am fully road legal and we only use legal routes so please pick on the idiots who ride illegally by all means but DO NOT tar us all with the same brush!!!

IMHO bikers are the friendliest people in the country but as in all walks of life a minority can sometimes give the majority a bad name

Ian

"My argument may be badly put but so far no one can tell me that off roaders are not selfishly pursuing their sport at the expense of other people." To quote you Dave.

And what past time, sport or activity doesnt at some point to some one?
Ramblers = erosion, rubbish, damage to private property bought about by freedom to roam (im from Mid Wales, seen the results of this first hand), illegal parking and congestion in rural areas, animals put at risk on farms due to ignorance, people dying out in the hills because they choose to go out in adverse conditions which then puts others at risk (mountain rescue, volunteers etc).

Horse riders = manure on public paths/roads etc, liability to road users yet there is no insurance cover or licence etc needed to be in control of these animals etc etc etc.

The list goes on Dave and im sure others could add more when and if they choose because everything can be a bind to someone at some stage.
At the end of the day Dave i dont suppose any of us are trying to convince you to like motorbikes, what we are saying is that we are no worse or better than anyone that uses the countryside but as tax payers (Legal riders, again, no one is defending illegal riders or 4x4 use) and British citizens we should be just as entitled to enjoy our countryside as any other organisation or past time.
There are laws against bigotry in this country, laws to protect the minority. Sick that its so selective and the likes of the RA are allowed to get away with it.

Hi Dave - I don't think your argument is badly put at all, I feel it is simply mis-informed.

You say you are not aware of motorised vehicle users helping to repair damaged Byways (not just damage from recreational use, but agricultural and weather of course), and you are not aware of the TRF?

It appears you are also ignorant of the various classifications of Rights of Way in this country - which is perfectly understandable, as the majority of the population are.

The TRF is the Trail Riders Fellowship - it is the representative body for those who wish to use unsurfaced roads with motorcycles, and tries to promote safe and sustainable use of such. It is essentially the two-wheeled equivalent of the Ramblers Association (though somewhat less tyrannical). Local (regional) groups often embark on lane clearance - typically of litter and fallen trees/overgrown bushes - that have a benefit to all users of that lane.

Likewise, LARA and CRAG are two other bodies that represent the four-wheeled vehicle users, and also provide many hours of manpower to help repair damaged/blocked lanes, and recently in South Wales for example, have actually built a footbridge for walkers to use to cross a river.

Regarding the use of motorised vehicles on Byways - noone is for a moment suggesting that large heavy vehicles should be crossing soft boggy ground - that is clearly going to make a mess.

However, the vast majority of Byways in this country are old carriage or cart roads (usually underpinned with a solid base), and were designed to carry wheeled traffic - hence the width between walls/hedgerows for example. While a motorised vehicle does have substantially more power than a horse and wagon, it also has far less ground pressure and will not cut up a track in the same way as a narrow steel wheels and hooves did. The fact vehicles are now motorised is simply progress.

Believe me, I sympathise with you where someone has used a heavy right foot when a softly-softly approach would have been more effective and less damaging. Where Byways have proved unable to support the weight of vehicular use (typically 4x4 vehicles) then those lanes have been restricted/closed.

However, where the surface is sustainable (hard pack/rock) there no reason not to allow vehicles to use them - it is just as legitimate recreational use as any other? - indeed one might argue that vehicular use is actually more appropriate as it is a continuation of the original reason the lane was there in the first place - typically Byways lead from one village to another, and link up with the network of roads that have since been tarmaced.

As for motorcycles, consider that a small capacity trail bike weighs a quarter of the average adult horse, and is also around a quarter of the physical size. Motorcycles leave very little if any trace of their passing, which is why in some instances - local authorities have closed lanes to 4-wheeled vehicles, but still allow motorcycles to use them.

I think the main issue here is that most people do not realise that they are choosing to walk on a lane that has vehicular access? Local authorities do their best to correctly signpost the status of the lane (be that Footpath, Bridleway or Byway), but many people do not realise that if they choose to walk on a Byway, it is only natural they will encounter vehicles - likewise if you walk on a Bridleway, you are likely to encounter a horse or cyclist.

Fundamentally, the current Right of Way network in the UK has less than 2% available to motorised vehicles. I would suggest that should anyone really not wish to encounter a motorised vehicle whilst walking, they look at a map, and elect to walk a route/footpath that constitutes the other 98%? Indeed in North Wales particularly (with which the original article is concerned) there are hundreds of footpaths that offer stunning views, and which no vehicle could possibly attempt!

I don't for a moment consider this information will convince you otherwise Dave, however, I feel it is important to help other readers understand that when using a Right of Way, it is only natural to encounter other users, and if using a Byway, that will include motorised vehicles.

I think we all need to be a little more tolerant of each others hobbies!

I love motorbikes and especially road racing, I even like organised trials events and moto cross.

My argument is not just about bikes but all forms of motorised vehicles being where they have no place. Perhaps in the US or Oz or other large land mass countries, but not this little place.

It is a no brainer really and if you cannot see that then I suppose that's an end to it.

I have been going to Bwlch Y Groes for years now to enjoy a little bit of peace and quite. The damage caused by the 4 x4 and motorbikes is absolutely disgusting. I have observed on several occasions bikes tearing up the moorland and coming over from the quarry at The Horsehoe Pass, over the hill fort and down into the natural bowl at Groes. If you think that this will repair itself, after the damaged caused then you would be very mistaken.
Erosion of the peat and moorland is quite evident to see on google earth or maps.
If you want a bit of fun, go to a registered event such as Maeshafn, which is only 20 minutes away.
Some people now use GPS receivers and should a motorbike or 4 X 4 or motorbike be observed on the moorland then those co-ordinates will be given to the police. It takes 5 minutes for the helicopter to get there!
Above all be sensible. Registered events have first aid, refreshments, may charge but there are a lot of people around should an accident occur. You don't get that on a mountain that is 500 metres up!

Im looking for a place to ride a quad but am only interested in doing so in a profesonal manner, i care just as mutch about the inviroment as any walker and it pains me to hear that as biker we only get 2% of the land and still have to put up with ramblers jumping out and wasteing police time. If we were alocated more space and given more respct you would stop people going off trail and there would be less damage, the simple fact is walkers, horse riders, and motor bikers must be seperated with clear markings and difering pathways, these 3 groups will never see eye to eye where ever they are and its time the police and local council took a stand and addresd us all. I must stress we need more land due to covering it quicker, nearer 20% and most of us would pay for the priverlige, thats more than any ramblers or horse riders would give you and it could go towards repairs as and when.....
As for ktm good on ya, you speak your mind and i agree, im sure you would'nt be stoping other peoples enjoyment, easy on the off piest though, good on jenny m aswell.

Congratulations to North Wales Police in Denbigh for their tough action in countering the illegal, irresponsible motorbike menace, and particularly for their use of a helicopter to track the culprits. Some other police forces equip specially trained officers to give chase on their own trail bikes.
However, there are some areas, such as South Lakeland, where the problem is just as bad, but with no such facilities to deal with it, and it is far too easy for culprits to escape any phoned report to the local police.
Faced with escalating desecration of the bridleways, footpaths and open fell land and the apparent inability of the local authorities to deal with it, in May 2006 a small local group decided to do something about it: they launched CAMARM, CAMpaign Against Rogue Motorcycling, whose main proposal is to encourage all walkers to go armed at all times with a camera; within the limits of their own safety to take photos of the number plates of any vehicle that comes close enough; and to hand these to their local police.
The police say that they cannot act without evidence. CAMARM’s aim is to mobilise the greatest possible number of concerned individuals to gather and provide that evidence. Together with the top-down method of reporting incidents to the police, this measure can provide a vital bottom-up addition.
CAMARM aims to replace the question “Why don’t THEY do something about it?” by “What can I do to help?” Visit www.camarm.info to find out out how.
Rogue motorcycling is a national problem; it needs a national response.