I agree with the comments in this article. More and more hill goers in winter carry crampons with them but knowledge of when to use them sometimes seems lacking.

It's probably because there's not enough snow and ice during the year to get much experience in these conditions. To expect people to wear crampons for the correct conditions is extremely difficult. I remember a few years ago on Beinn Chuirn (Corbett) and I was baffled whether to use crampons or not - The snow wasn't deep enough but I was slipping like hell. For safety (I was alone) I put them on. Maybe someone else would have done something differently?

Now if they were wear flip-flops and crampons, that's a story!

I was cursing myself for not having crampons last Saturday - not for the tops, but for the farm track that leads up the NW of Broad Law from the A701. It was completely frozen over with water ice, and I was stumbling/skidding about like John Sargeant.

Anent Agent: Now there's a weird coincidence - I was on Broad Law, from the same side, just three days after you, this past Tuesday. First time I'd been on it since 1987. Crook Inn looks a sad sight, all boarded up. Hope to goodness it doesn't get converted into holiday flats - it ought to still be a pub. If I had money I'd buy it.
Almost all of Saturday's snow and ice had gone; we came down the track where you wanted crampons and high up it was a weird mush - spongy snow-soaked gravel. There were sections where when we tried to walk down it we semi sank in.

Dave

As Agentmancuso's story highlights please pay attention to the ambient temperature over the preceding days before your trip and not just to whether there is any snow on the ground. 3-4 days and nights of sub zero temps will freeze up many approach paths if there is standing water or seepage lines and if folk have not taken crampons then the MRT's will have a busy time.

I witnessed an odd sight today: two people with snowshoes walking on the Bronte moors in the south Pennines.

There was, at most, three inches of snow, soft as cotton wool, yet one of them was persisting with the circus clown walk as each footstep sank into the ground.

Still, I suppose if you've paid for the tennis raquets, you might as well use them when there's a bit of white stuff about, even if it does take you twice as long to cover the ground.

If I want to wear crampons and use poles instead of carrying an axe then thats my choice !
Perhaps I am experienced enough to make that decision, likewise if I chose not to put crampons because my shoes have carbide steel spikes on the bottom of them.

Half the problem is our sport is caught in a time warp of weirdie beardies who have not caught up with technology or new techniques !

DON'T GO OUT WITHOUT THEM!
SEE RESCUES 2009
http://www.lamrt.org.uk/

Bobinson is entitled to disagree with Dave Hewitt if he likes, but why does he feel the need to be so rude about it? Wearing crampons in soft snow can be dangerous because the balling-up can cause a fall. If Bobinson knows of some new technology or new technique that overcomes this problem, he should tell us about it, but politely.

With regard to Bob Smith's snowshoe sightings, I've occasionally quite fancied a pair of these, and friends who do a lot of skiing enthuse about them every time there's deep soft snow. I've never tried a pair, and I'd probably be a bit self-conscious about waddling around with feet strapped inside things that look like they might be used by Messrs Nadal and Federer; but, as ever, if it makes sense re smooth progress and safety, I'd be up for it. Presumably snowshoes require a John-Wayne-on-a-horse kind of walk, even more bow-legged than for crampons. The Beinn Ime day that I mentioned in the original piece would have been a good place to test-drive a pair.

Re Bobinson (good name, by the way); I'm not knocking the poles+crampons combo - in fact my Beinn Ime friend Warbeck opts for that on a regular basis, although he does always have an axe somewhere about his person as well, just in case. What worries me is the poles but no axe/crampons kind of person, increasingly in evidence on steep ground, while the crampons-on-soft-snow idea simply puzzles me. Andrew Fraser is right to note the dangers of crampons balling-up in soft snow, and I've had a relatively recent incident that caused me to give thought to this. In January last year I was lucky to escape unscathed after a 30m slide/tumble caused in part by my crampons (which don't have anti-balling plates) balling-up in a mixture of underlying ice and sugar-like surface snow. This was on Creag Mhor up Glen Lochay and, while it was in part just an uncontrolled slither (the axe simply sliced through the sugary stuff), it did include a through-the-air-backwards 5m section that I could happily have done without.

Interesting comments all round, anyway - thanks to everyone for the feedback (and feel free to add more - it's not summer yet). By my reckoning there have already been ten fatalities on the UK hills since the turn of the year, which it almost goes without saying is ten too many.

In response to Andrew
Apologies if I came accross as rude.

Anti Balling plates or flexible crampons or even kit such as Kahtoola Micro spikes are options.
There is a discussion about crampons on Munro magic similar to this !
All I am saying everybody should be left to make their own decisions instead of being judged

I went out for a quick tutorial on crampons etc last week. Modern crampons (I was told, as mine didn't) should have anti-balling plates, which are like flexible plastic membranes that go in and out as you walk. Hence balls do not build up. Apparently good waterproof ducktape can be used. Note the message from Langdale Ambleside mountain rescue above - a number of their shouts in recent weeks - at one point they were out almost 48 hours non-stop - have related to people who found themselves surrounded by ice and unable to move safely, simply because the sun had gone off the slope they were on. They've also had well-equipped and experienced people caught out - one died.

As an experienced walker, not climber, I used crampons for the first time ever this weekend. I had trepidations as they were army surplus salewa strap-on crampons on Scarpa ZG65 basically three season boots. To cut to the point (pun intended) I enjoyed far more the non slip sliding on the route up long stile onto High street and they worked superbly. The snow was a mixture of ice crust and softer drift with occasional frozen streamlets to contend with. The main problem was on the plateau where making good time, I occasionally front pointed my other crampon strap ending in a tumble. This was just lack of practice as apart from the back lawn I had not walked in them before. I am convinceed that this winter there is a need for crampons on higher slopes and I would take them with me on my next winter excursion.

andy.

Additionally my feet were warm and stayed dry in the scarpas and the crampons did not suffer from balling possibly due to the very open frame on the older 12 pointers.

if your crampons don't have anti balling plates you can make pretty good ones out of duck tape!

Can I just say what a pleasure it is to have the wisdom of Dave Hewitt of the unmissable Angry Corrie hillzine appearing on this equally worthy site. A man always worth reading even if I might not agree wtih everything he says - though in this case seems like plain good sense to me.

Having kickstarted all this crampon talk has led me to rummage in my old logbooks to see when I first wore a pair, and it was 22 Feb 1986, on Ben Ledi. Coincidentally I was up there again last Sunday on an ace cramponing day - the slopes up the back of the Stank glen had acres of glistening snow-ice, lovely stuff. I mentioned that 1986 day to the friend I'd been with, and said my memory was that I'd been merely trying them out and it hadn't really been a suitable day. By contrast he said he remembered skidding about all over the place in his cramponless state, was jealous, and went and bought his own pair pretty sharpish.

I love them - brilliant invention, great bit of kit etc. That 1986 pair - French strappy things, oo missus - saw service until the early 90s when I became fed up with taking ten minutes to put them on high on some icy ridge in a bitter finger-trashing wind - whereupon they (the crampons, not my fingers) would usually work loose within a few minutes. I'd seen a pair of step-ins in a shop somewhere, along with a pair of plastic boots, so went and bought them. Must have been flush back then. The plastic boots weren't a success - fine when there was snow down to the road, but clumpy as hell on grassy slopes and even worse on track/road walk-outs. Thankfully within a couple of years a big Scarpa leather pair appeared with the requisite front-and-back ledges for the step-ins, so I bought those. I'm still using both those boots and the step-ins 15 or more years on. In a normal winter I probably put on the crampons ten or a dozen times (I live in Stirling, so there are plenty of biggish hills not too far away), but the way this winter is going it'll likely be well over 20 days by the time it's done.

Like Andyr, I'm a walker, not a climber, and have never worn a rope in winter - although the boundary between winter walking and climbing tends to get blurred and from time to time I've trundled up short stretches of Grade I terrain. It's a generalisation, but I think there are three basic situations relating to crampons: (i) don't really need them (which relates to the Beinn Ime and Ochils days I mentioned in the piece); (ii) useful and time-saving (which was maybe the situation on that Ben Ledi day in 1986); and (iii) absolutely nailed-down essential, days when one is quite likely to die without them. My second-ever outing in them, on the eastern Mamores during the stonkingly great new year of 1986/87, was very definitely in the (iii) category, and ensured that I learnt the basic techniques fast.

Re Andyr's snagging of one crampon with the other, I've never done that (being knock-kneed probably helps), but just before Christmas I did something similar. Was on that lovely southern ridge of Stob Binnein, doing the habitual thing of whacking each crampon with the axe every half-minute or so to stop any balling-up. Normally I do this without thinking, but I got the timing slightly wrong and contrived to snag a crampon-spike in the rubberised handle of the axe-shaft - such that I suddenly found myself hopping around with one foot stuck in mid-air. Yikes. Thankfully it was on easy ground and I didn't fall over, but it was briefly alarming and an example of how there is always some new nuance of technique to learn.

Duck tape as home-made deballing plates - yes, I've heard of that, and also of the plastic lids off ice-cream tubs being cut to shape and wedged in under the crampons. People do say these things work, and I don't doubt them, but I think I'll likely just go and buy a new pair with proper deballing plates sometime before too long. I don't trust my DIY skills (non-existent).

Finally, thanks very much to holtlynx for the kind words. In case anyone is wondering when the next issue of The Angry Corrie (no.75) will appear, I can't say precisely but it's likely to be late Feb. Meant to get it out in Jan but that was scuppered by a combination of a mild dose of editor's block plus one of the magazine's cartoonists having taken himself off to Tanzania for a month or more. With luck it'll go to press sometime the week after next, and it usually takes about a week from there.

Far be it from me to agree with something Dave Hewitt has written :) but I would agree there is a lot of sense in the piece. Possibly one of the problems is that many people are experiencing the first "real" winter for a long time and are simply inexperienced in crampon use. However, Dave touched on snowshoes and I really just wanted to wave the flag a bit for these contraptions. I've had a number of excellent days recently on snowshoes, mostly in my local Monadh Liath, and while the snow is deep and unconsolidated they are superb. Incidentally they also work well on snow covered heather - you still sink in quite deep but generally avoid sinking through to the bog underneath. The main problem with snowshoeing in Scotland is that the slopes tend to become quite icy, and snow shoes are not brilliant on neve, but for the odd day out on unconsolidated snow they are great. Another difficulty is that they are hard to get a hold of. I think the nearest shop to sell them is in Chamonix!

hey andy were those salawas off ebay, i bought a pair
did my first walk with crampons at the weekend helvellyn via swirral edge
didnt feel confident enough to tackle striding edge

i didnt suffer from the snow balling up maybe it was because it was frozen

i also snagged my boot with a crampon point resulting in a tumble it was on the last mile or so and i was knackered

must say it was the best days walking in the lakes i have had in 20yrs itching to get back next week

Cameron - good to read your thoughts. Hope you're keeping well up in snowy Strathspey, and fair play for responding; who knows, grough might be able to open diplomatic channels between Hamas and the Israelis next!
As I say, I don't have any direct experience of snowshoes so can't comment on those, but you're absolutely right about the first hard winter for some time catching people out. There's a bit of a blasé tendency to be seen on the winter hills sometimes, people who are basically summer walkers stretching the envelope and assuming that if it's mild and snow-free in January at lower levels then it's the same up top. I'm all for envelope-stretching as that's how people improve their ability, but it can easily stray into carelessness, and on the winter hills carelessness is often only a step away from calamity.
Mind you, the recent mild winters have produced a lot of "mixed" conditions, with partial snow cover rather than the full-blown well-consolidated stuff we have this time round. I sometimes think that mixed conditions are the most dodgy of all, not least because they tend to produce a lot of water ice on otherwise bare hillsides.

Was out today, in wonderful light but slightly odd conditions underfoot. My pal Mike Adam and I did the Beinn Bhreac-liath / Beinn Udlaidh Corbett pair from Glen Orchy, snow down to the road. On the hill it was a mix of good ice and soft snow, with very little in between - not much firm kickable snow. We both had crampons but Mike opted not to use his, to get a bit of practice in the older ways, so we spent much of the day walking parallel lines, me on the ice, him on the soft stuff. Both worked fine, was one of those kind of days. We reckoned it would have been a good day for ye olde nailed boots, as they would have been fine on both types of terrain in a mix'n'match kind of way. Might even have been a day for nailed snowshoes!
There's certainly a lot of ice about - massive icicles on pretty much every crag we saw, and when we came down the north side of Beinn Udlaidh the weird lochan at NN277338 was frozen solid - Mike took a pic of Ben Lui while standing right in the middle of it and I suggested he comes back in June and takes another one from the same spot. It's a weird lochan because it's very near the edge of the crag - just a few yards away, really unusual. (It's not shown on the 1:50k map but is on the 1:25k one.)

Rob - Sounds like you were canny to do Swirral but not Striding. I've been on them both several times in summer and Striding is definitely the more fiddly and sustained of the two. Arguably the easiest way to do them is up Swirral, down Striding, as this means you go up the awkward chimney on the latter. But it does mean going down the long, steep, rocky slope from the summit of Helvellyn - suspect that could be quite daunting in winter, even with all the gear.

Rob,

Yes they were from ebay, a snip at the price, I went along to his physical shop to pick them up as it was close. A walking friend had bought some grizel step in crampons and was itching to try them, so I got these in case I needed them, and I did. Great fun as I expect you had on swirral. I too would be hesitant on verglas on striding edge with or without crampons. The salewas did not ball up at all, I think my pratfalls were as a result of trying too much speed at the end of the day with tired legs. The points on these salewas seem much longer and sharper than modern items.

Good luck on your next walk, I will be up there at the end of Feb.

andyr

Sorry, previous post self edited when I pressed submit!

As a user of crampons, snowshoes, poles and Icebug spiked footear in different combinations I often find the various arguments for an against crampons quite baffling.
Using any gear is just taking the equivalent of a spanner out of the toolbox. An engineer will pick the right one a DIY-er will pick the shifter and make the best of it. Professionals and amatuers alike both end up in A&E.
I’ve seen folk this winter in situtaions where I’ve had crampons on and needed them, and they’ve been gingerly walking in plain boots with an ice axe still strapped to their packs.
Train, advise, demonstrate and equip all you like, you’ve still got to overcome human nature.
I’ve been using Kahtoola crampons for years and have watched public perception change positively and the outdoor “establishment” flinch at the idea of them which reached an interesting turning point in a recent Trail article about them to which I was the only contributor who had actually worn a pair in anger, yet opinions were strongly expressed all round.
So maybe it’s “wear crampons, but only these ones” is another message folks are getting. The incredible outdated boot/crampon rating system is another barrier.
Simple, truthful information, easily accessible is what we need. Assistants in shops who know what’s going on in 2009 and not 1985 to advie customers.
Folk who have bought crampons are at least trying, and if they’re using them they know that they’re not just for bringing out at dinner parties to impress friends.

I know that’s a disconnected set of thoughts and ideas. But it shows how muddied the waters are to me, so what must it be like to those new to the concept?

Well, is this where the grand old man of the Angry Corrie is hiding! The TAC web magazines haven't been updated since mid 2008 and my productivity at work has gone through the roof. While my knowledge of Scottish hilldoings is suffering badly.
I agree with Dave's article that the carrying/using of crampons is a damned dodgy business: don't carry them in serious conditions and you end up dead or embarrassing yourself as a Mountain Rescue stat; do carry them when conditions aren't serious enough and you end up looking like a Trail-brainwashed gear freak - a fate much worse than the first scenario!
I'll be temporarily migrating in the near future from the Plains of Albion to the Munros of Glenfinnan and Knoydart. For this reason I had started checking mwis one week ahead, as you do, to check on the very likelihood of hoofing an extra kilo of steel pins around on my rucksack. (saw this link from mwis and here I am.)
Must say it very nice that Dave and Cameron seem to enjoying a bit of a love-in nowadays. Aren't the pages of TAC littered with accusations of the renowed Munro expert and TV soundbiteista plagiarising mountain routes and depositing "elephant sized turds" in dry river beds? While the complimentary issue of TAC sent by Hewitt was returned to TAC Towers as "junk mail" by the selfsame Great Authority? Ho ho. all good stuff. great to see all getting on so well now.
Good luck with the website - sure it will get even better once a few of the non-active hillwalkers, but very active typists from outdoorsmagic forums make their merry way over.

PhilipA:
Haven't been hiding, just meandering about a bit. You're right that The Angry Corrie's been having long-than-usual gaps of late, but it sounds like you've missed an issue - TAC74 came out in October although only in printed form - it's not on the website. If you want a copy, contact me by a behind-the-scenes route and I'll bung one in the post. TAC75 is almost ready to rumble: just waiting for the last bit of artwork to come in, and I'll be taking it to the printer either tomorrow or the day after. Normally comes out about a week thereafter, ie early March in this case.
Good luck with the Glenfinnan/Knoydart trip. I fear you won't be getting much chance to wield winter ironmongery, although I'd definitely bring it north in the car at least - it is only late Feb, after all, and there's a reasonable chance of a brief reprise of winter. The main stuff seems to have gone, though: I was on some of the Glen Shee hills last weekend and never took the axe off the rucksack. The snow, very soggy, was only patchy at 3000ft and even at 3500ft there were sizeable gaps. Could see into the high Cairngorms for a while and the level at which snow cover was continuous, on south-facing slopes at least, was close to 4000ft. And there's seemingly less in the west than in the east. A huge difference from about ten days ago, when it was still very much winter even close to sea level. Megathaw.
Spring's certainly starting up: have seen/heard several larks these past few days, the oystercatchers have started to come back upriver here, and two large frogs were giving a vigorous exhibition of what frogs do in the spring in our garden yesterday. And, best of all, the daylight's lengthening apace.
Oh, re Cameron and me, no contract has yet been signed but I'm hopeful that you'll be able to see us dancing together in the next series of Strictly.

Thanks for the reply Dave,
Especially appreciated a bit of local input on weather, very good of you. Must admit though, it more or less confirms my advanced monitorings from afar. Have been watching web cams, BBC 5 day for Fort Williiam and of course mwis. As of today mild and melting, but may go colder again from Sun and, as you say, reasonable chance of reprise in what will only be the first week of March afterall. Will bring both bits of iron in the car and use/ not use as appropriate. At the end of the day, will exercise caution as will not be falling into the silly trap of thinking 8C at Fort William also equates to pleasant conditions above 900m!
The daylight is indeed lengthening: will make a pleasant change from the last time I was in Knoydart with my brother on 27th Dec 2005 when we went from A’Chuil to Sourlies via the four Munros: 11 hours of walking didn’t go very well into 8 hours of daylight!
Have managed to pick up TAC in nice little independent establishments in Braemar and Peebles before. Will keep an eye out in Fort William.
Not sure whether it’s an indication of my childish mentality or the quality of the writers and the contributors to TAC that such quaint episodes as recounted previously remain so memorable!

Cheers

Philip

Having had to sit on my bottom two winters running to get down a very long and dangerous garden path belonging to someone else, with no chance of stepping anywhere safe; plus the problem of having to cross an extremely narrow, icy bridge with a slope into the path of lorries approaching from behind - and the nearest alternative a snow/ice-covered route along a towpath (canal path) - I have had ENOUGH.

This winter, I'm ordering crampons - however unconventional.

I don't know whether they are suitable for wear with ordinary boots though.

I am currently doing some research into crampons, was considering making some as they dont look too difficult. This is because I took a trip up Benn Ime the other day with my mother and she found it quite difficult on the stretch below the tree line which was particularly icy. Indeed, as we were tackling the first 10 yrd stretch there were a couple coming down, saying it was far too icy up there.

Every person/group we passed were all shod in crampons, yet the going got much easier the higher we got. I didnt feel like I was really missing out, but for piece of mind for my mother I will definately be making her get some before the next outing.

If some gear costs relatively little for the life expectancy, then it definately makes sense to purchase and keep us on the hills year round!

I totally see and agree with what you are saying but you can't judge everyone.

The media and mountain rescue (for good reason) are basically 'telling' people to use them.

I myself am preparing for a 7000m summit abroad. I will be 'getting used to' new crampons by going on some icy/snowy stretches in Wales. Now then it may be an area I would normally be ok in boots.

We are all different, so to start telling people not to wear them and it is their first time maybe to ascend a mt in winter would be irresponsible on your part.
What if someone gets into trouble and they say 'dave hewitt said in his article I would be ok'?

If people feel safer in them let them be I say, at least more can enjoy the mountains, and safer

[...] grough — Crampons: the new hillwalker’s fashion accessory?Jan 12, 2009 … The main problem with snowshoeing in Scotland is that the slopes tend to become quite icy, and snow shoes are not brilliant on neve, but for … [...]