"grough asked Ramblers Scotland for its view but had received no response by the time of publication."

very much a sign of the times!

as someone who walks the areas concerned i have witnessed the idiots who ruin it for others but would better policeing not be afairer way as myself and others like me put an awful lot of money into the local economy and do not need the burden of having toavoid these areas it is the minority not the majority who waste it and as im led to believe i live in a democratic state the people who wish to put these bans in place will soon find themselves out of work

Let's be clear. Wild Camping, when practised as described under the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, is entirely acceptable, legal and one of the most enjoyable and sustainable ways of experiencing the outdoors.
What is being proposed at Loch Lomond is a genuine attempt to manage the worst excesses of concentrated use and unacceptable, anti-social behaviour, common to a number of easily accessible sites, including Rannoch.
The Loch Lomond proposal is not anti Land Reform legislation.

I'm from Holland and I'm a huge fan of Scotland. Lots of time I've been wild camping in Scotland and as a Bushcraft instructor I was really concerned about the terrible conditions around the lochs especially from young fishermans.
In all the years I've been in Scotland I've never seen any policecar and maybe one time a forestry commission making controls around the lochs but otherwise I've seen a lot of people throwing all kind of things in the water and in the bushes.
It will be very sad if wild camping will be banned because of lack of respect of this beautyfull country!

Those who are "disconnected" from nature are highly likely to cause problems for others and damage the surrounding environment wherever they go. Egotism, narcissism, violence and vandalism don't exactly keep a human being "connected", especially when fuelled by a cocktail of drugs and/or excessive alcohol.

Considering the huge number of visitors the Loch Lomond area receives every year, I am astounded there is not a far higher Police presence to tackle the problems being caused by the minority. Sadly, the general behaviour around Loch Lomond has massively deteriotated over the past ten years, leading to many "responsible" people heading further affield.

What would the result be if they increased the Police presence and properly enforced existing laws? Based on the revenue figures such tourism brings into the area every year, is it an unthinkable idea to spend more on Policing it properly? It would seem the visible Police presence around Loch Lomond is more focused in raising revenue for the government by catching speeding motorists (UK: £100 million per annum).

I am also astounded at the poor condition of many approach roads which can cause immense damage to "visitors" cars. The relevant authorities should have radically improved the condition of the surrounding roads and had far better amenities in place a long time ago. Instead, it is time to discuss "bans".

Rather than the media continuously using the slogan "wild campers" I believe the emphasis should be on the differences between "responsible" and "irresponsible" campers, irrespective of whether they are deemed to be camping wild, informal or otherwise. Having just read the consultation document online (see bottom for link), I am hopeful the NPA will push hard for a fair deal.

To state the obvious, restrictions in one area will simply lead to the problems moving elsewhere. If the topic of bans is going to spread further affield, how about some sort of individual "licence" scheme, providing open and responsible access to "anywhere" in Scotland for those who obtain such a licence. Show the licence to any recognised authority when necessary and the holder should be allowed to continue with their business.

Responsible people will already be fully aware of the various laws and access codes, be properly equipped, in addition to the things to do and not to do whilst making the most of being "at one with nature" and enjoying the great outdoors. A licence would simply be official confirmation that a level of understanding is known.

If necessary, go ahead and put in sufficient "informal" camping areas with the minimum of amenities, have the areas properly and effectively Policed and the problem should be contained given enough time for the word to spread that any nonsense will be severely dealt with. Only enforce an outright ban in areas that are so badly eroded that recovery time is essential.

For the minority that are causing all the problems, subject them to rigourous community service whereby they will be made to tidy up the shores and areas they are responsible for causing damage to. Also, fastrack them through the courts and keep unscrupulous defence lawyers out of the picture.

On another note, I was astounded to see the effort that has been made to block access to a number of suitable parking and camping spots in Glen Etive during a visit in October 2009. Yet another area that is prone to huge crowds looking for a place to party for the night. This blocking of suitable camping areas makes it very difficult for hillwalkers and climbers to camp the night before. Just a matter of time before bans are disccussed for Etive.

Loch Lomond Consultation:
http://www.lochlomond-trossachs.org/images/stories/Visiting/PDF/Camping%20Byelaw%20final.pdf

I agree with most of what is being said but in this day and age most people have mobile phones use them and report any bad behaviour and keep using them let the people chase the louts and keep them out instead of them harassing us lets start harassing them on the same note i visit numerous bothies over the year and the damage i see is beyond belief and that is not your normal lout doing this it is inconsiderate climbers and walkers from all walks of life who probably tut tut at the idiots on the banks of loch lomond

I sometimes wonder if people like murdo frasier knows what he is talking about or has a self interest like is an election due i would like to meet mr frasier to discuss what he expects to gain out of a ban i wonder if he is connected to one of these families who want to keep scotland to themselves and there friends you know the ones that like to shoot everything they see if left to him it wouldnt be ahouse of frasier sale but another highland clearance

Why not just ban everyone from going out to city centres on Saturday Nights where a lot of trouble is caused by idiots. Why not create a job... what, create a job! yes, for a lochside warden at each location. But no, I don't expect this would ever happen. There is too much money made from alcohol sales in the cities, and not enough money to police the lochs.
It is obvious that the police nearest to each lochside location deal with any reported trouble, that's what we pay taxes for, not just stupidly create a blanket ban on wild camping which would deprive all law abiding citizens, families and children from experiencing nature. This lack of intelligence to problem solving is truly unbelievable and should not be allowed.

Its not walkers wild camping that is a problem on Loch Rannoch.

As a resident of the area - I regularly have to clear up mess left behind by fisherman, who camp at the lochside at weekends.

The rubbish/excrement is bad enough - but i get really annoyed by the broken glass from beer bottles tossed onto the rocks in the shallows.

It curtails swimming/kayaking/canoeing activities for the children plus several times now we have had to take the dogs to the vets with lacerated paws.

It is rural vandalism - but it is not walkers it is the fishing community usually from Perth, Edinburgh and Glasgow. They car camp on the lochside - despite an excellent Forestry Camp/Caravanning site at Kilvrecht.

Recently someone pitched a caravan at teh lochside including a portable petrol electric generator running through the night.

I am a wild camper and have camped in several places on loch lomond side over the years. There are literally 1000's of bushcraft and wild camping enthusists all over the UK who practice sustainable wild camping. Anyone who truely loves this activity knows to "leave only footprints and take only photos" from such beautiful areas. It has been drummed into me from an early age, that I must leave the place, as I found it. Wild Camping is my passion. Some people like cars, some like football or sports but for increasing numbers, wild camping is "their thing". Even writing this, my stomach churns and blood boils at the mindless idiots who are ruining this for the rest of us.

The biggest frustration is how to manage the problem. Running courses won't work in my opinion: The people likely to attend already understand they have a social responsibility to leave a place undisturbed but may simply need advice on how you do this. The morons who are ruining the wild camping spots simply don't care that they make a mess and ruin it for us - They have never given their actions a second thought.

Perhaps affected areas could be policed using funds gained by fining these idiots. I have no objection to hefty fines for anti-social and irresponsible behaviour around our loch sides.

I also don't agree that it is specific groups that are to blame for the damage to our loch shores. The truth is their are 1000's or responsibe fisherman, walkers and wild campers in Scotland but it only takes one or 2 idiots to trigger a chain of events that will restrict the majority of us doing what we love. It is the classic: tail wagging the dog. I am deeply upset at the propect of these by-laws but fully understand the need for locals, land owner and other land users right to enjoy these beautiful places.

Before we introduce these laws we need a proper forum to discuss the merits on how this problem can be addressed. It is simply not acceptable to introduce laws that restrict wholesale use of our most treasure beauty spots. Different funding models for additional policing, licensing and all the other solutions MUST be explored first before Murdo Fraser gets his way and ruins it for us and future generations.

I'm sick of the new kind of visitors that invade Scotland's beaches and wild places. Fishermen are the worst, leaving beer cans, bottles, fishing debris including plastic bait bags, fishing line, hooks. They light fires with the branches they cut off our trees, sewage marker posts, beams over gates and whatever else they can lay their hands on. They leave shit and paper. People now drive all over the beach, over sewer pipes, breaking them, and ruining the lie of the beach, crushing birds eggs, disturbing the wildlife and intimidating us residents. Tinkers are equally bad with no regard for the residents, human or otherwise, I've cleaned up the most nauseating rubbish left behind by them including soiled disposable nappies and house hold type waste including the obligatory whisky and beer bottles that seems to be a feature of the ignorant lowlife of the Scottish population. We had an invasion of Belgian 4x4 fans who arrived en-masse, a huge convoy of them driving all over the beach, camping without asking permission, crushing the sewer pipes and leaving the evidence of their vehicles on the beach which has remained throughout the summer.

If people are unable to use common sense in our dumbed down society where they think that they are deserving of everything without contributing anything, then restrictions by the state will have to be enforced at the cost to all. I love to walk and camp in the wilds and cherish our Scottish freedoms but these imbecilic vandals seem to have too much money and access without an equivalent amount of respect and intelligence, and are a plague.

Fortunately, in our area of Oban and Loch Etive, the police have been extremely helpful and cooperative and welcome any requests to come and deal with the problems that we encounter here on an almost daily basis. I recommend that all landowners and residents use the police and make calls, the police will step up their presence and patrols as a result.

I sympathise greatly with Julie's sentiments, and agree that more visible policing, combined with a decent police response to any reports of problems, may be better than a ban on wild camping. It is true that we nearly all have mobile phones, but the question is: Who do you ring?

I travel quite a long way to enjoy my Scottish camping, and obviously don't know the telephone numbers of all the local police offices. Clearly I shouldn't dial 999 just because some louts are causing problems as it's not an emergency, so how about signs (sturdy metal ones) erected in suitable locations with a telephone number to ring in case of problems (and please, not 0845, 0844, 0870 etc, just a normal geographic number!)

We wild camped for the first time along Loch Tummel just a few weeks ago, the morning after arrival we had a visit from a very friendly warden who left us with a little card on do's and don'ts, he also left us with some horror stories of past campers.On the 2nd morning we had a visit from the police to say there had been reports of things going missing from tents, had we heard anything etc.

We loved wild camping and will be going again very soon, am hoping to miss all this bad behaviour by going out of season, its just all very unfortunate that the few are spoiling it for everyone!!!!

We have wild camped at tummel for the past 4 years and love the place. Theres loads of dead wood to have a small fire with. The last couple of times it has been very busy and I dont mind a big group of guys having a drink and a laugh but the mess in the woods is shocking, take a shovel and dig a fucking hole ! Other than that its really good. Warden is sound and very informative !

What are the do's and don'ts ? Are small fires allowed on Loch Tummel?

I feel policing these camping spots is a much easier way to manage the problem. It only happens in a certain window of the year say between May and September and usually only on Weekends - just go to the popular spots and keep and eye on everyone.

We go to Tummel every year and camp on the island and we always leave the place in perfect nick when we leave so it would be scandalous if a trip me and my friends have been making for over 10 years was suddenly against the law.

I'm the (fishing) Warden on Rannoch and Tummel. Despite the mess that some visitors leave I would hate to see Lomond type bylaws become commonplace, but the present situation of entirely unrestricted access is not really working. When you visit a lovely spot and find it trashed, or the crowd next door have got the music cranked up and you know that telling them to turn it down would be downright dangerous, you rightfully get upset.
Imagine the lot of living close by, the peace shattered every summer weekend, your trees,fences and gates getting burnt - and the Police apparently incapable of taking effective action.
Rather than a blanket ban on wild camping (including over-night anglers) how about a permit system ? Many (annual) wild camping permits would be issued as part of membership of organisations such as the Ramblers, Scouts, Dof E awards, canoeing, fishing clubs etc (subject to criminal record check) but these (drivers license-style) permits would also need to be available to individuals who did not wish to join a club of any kind. They need not be expensive - £20 per year tops.
Wild camping within a control area (decided by Council) without such a permit would become an arrestable offence. This would mean that IF the police were called, they could demand the production of a permit, and if any of the campers did not have one, they could be immediately removed. If the police witnessed antisocial behaviour involving permit holders they could revoke the permit for a given period of time (this power would have to be challengable in court) so making it difficult for the miscreant to continue wild -camping until their "ban" had expired.
It's a pity that we need any further restrictions, permissions or laws, but I have come to the conclusion that we do - for the benefit of the decent majority of wild campers as well as the farmers, landowners and lochside residents. I believe a permit system would be workable, and far preferable to excluding everyone.