I do think it is very important that people do learn these essential skills in navigation, and also go out with the necessary experience to keep them in control of their situation at all times. These devices should not be soley relied upon but should be considered.
We have had many successful finds using GPS enabled smart phones, i think they are a good tool to take with you, but as stated above SHOULD NOT be relied upon. If it does work, it speeds up the process of being able to find the lost people much quicker.

“The use of GPS on phones should be restricted to urban walking and not relied on in the hills where they invariably fail through lack of reception and poor battery life."

This statement is uninformed and incorrect, which is very unhelpful. GPS phones do not fail due to lack of reception - they are as good or better than any stand alone GPS. As for poor battery life - carry a spare! As you would do with a head torch. A good GPS phone battery will last 7-8 hours (much like many standalone GPS units) if wi-fi is turned off. If the phone is only switched on when needed a battery can last many days.

Of course street maps on phones are inadequate for navigation in the hills just as road maps are (and I've met people with those). OS maps on phones are needed.

Map and compass should be carried as well but phones are going to become more common in the hills regardless of what anyone says. Teaching people how to use them properly is important. Spreading falsehoods about them is worse than useless and will only make people distrust those who spread them.

I believe that the problem lies in people's basic lack of appreciation for the terrain that they are facing. Here in Telford we have a minor hill called The Wrekin which at a little over 1000ft is easily walked by even the most unfit of walkers and even this has seen tragedy.

What is needed is for walkers of all experience levels to understand the terrain, the weather and their own abilities and to plan accordingly.

Having GPS and not understanding how to interpret the information displayed is dangerous, attempting to walk in failing light without even a cheap torch is unwise, attempting the Coast to Coast when injured is suicidal.

Chris, as usual, speaks the utmost sense. We need to ensure that people are educated in how to treat the outdoors with respect and how to enjoy their surroundings without having to spend a small fortune getting there.

Commercialism will make sure that phones are out there but this is a school group which should be above and beyond all this modern bling.

It may help if people read the article at this address: -

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/navigation-gpsandsmartphones.asp

especially the last paragraph.

Not sure about Chris Townsend and his falsehoods; and as well as saying a map/compass should be carried, he could have mentioned that you must be able to use both effectively.

I recommend a read of the current advice about GPS and mobile phones on the MC of Scotland web site - especially the last paragraph.

That paragraph leads me to question Chris Townsend's assertion about the article being 'uninformed and incorrect'.

Also, it would have been useful if, as well as saying 'map and compass should be carried', he had added that the ability to use both competently was vital.

I don't see that anything in the MCofS article contradicts anything I have said. Of course devices can fail just as maps can blow away or disintegrate in the rain and compasses can break. Having a back-up and knowing how to use it is always wise.

The article is uninformed and incorrect in saying that GPS phone should be restricted to urban walking. This is rubbish and the reasons given are invalid.

I think the main problem is that most phones do not have OS maps on board. Even if they did, I suspect most people carrying them wouldn't be skilled in their use.

A competent navigator, with only a mobile phone and the Google type maps, could get themselves out of trouble on the hill, but that would require a fair amount of navigational skill.

There is more to it than just the equipment Chris.

Of course there's more to it than equipment, that's why I said 'teaching people how to use them properly is important'. As the OS maps on a phone - which need purchasing just like paper maps - are the same as OS ones if you can use one you can use the other. If you don't know how to use an OS map it doesn't matter if it's paper or on a phone.

As GPS phones are becoming more popular I think their use should be taught on navigation courses.

It is not the people who would see the sense in attending a navigation course that are the problem. GPS use has been covered for a number of years during those courses. I remember a short input to a course way back in 1996.

As demonstrated during the past few weeks, it is the people who think their smart phone will solve all difficulties - 'beam me up Scotty'. It it those people who have to be told that smart phones alone are not the answer.

Now whether it should be mountain rescue team personel who do so is another, somewhat historical debate. But certainly, it won't be those who market the devices who will be providing the sound advice.

Yes, how to get through to people who don't attend courses or read outdoor websites/books/magazines has always been a problem. The same people are likely to be those who don't bother with a map and compass or proper clothing/equipment.

The big phone companies are unlikely to provide sound advice, the companies selling the GPS software and OS maps can and do but again there's the problem of getting that through to people.

I think it's fine for mountain rescue personnel to say that people should carry a map and compass and know how to use them and that if they have a GPS smartphone it should have OS mapping and they should know how to use that but I don't think it's helpful for them to give incorrect information, as is reported here, as this just means people who know they are wrong won't bother listening to them.

People who 'know' - well they already know the benefits and limitations of using a GPS, whether as a standalone unit or in a smartphone and are unlikely to be swayed by the team's comments.

It's the people who do not have an understanding that need to be told clearly. It is not incorrect to tell those people that the GPS in a smartphone 'without additional navigational skill' is not for the hills.

As to 'incorrect information', perhaps the team secretary deliberately exagerated the potential problems with the devices to counter the glossy magazine adverts and articles that encourage people to head off for an adventure, but don't 'stress' the full story.

Maybe we need warnings like those on cigarette packets.

I think the point is that "without additional navigational skill" applies to any navigation gear - compass, map, GPS, GPS smartphone. Navigation require skill, whatever tools are used.

“The use of GPS on phones should be restricted to urban walking and not relied on in the hills where they invariably fail through lack of reception and poor battery life." This isn't an exaggeration, it's untrue

The BMC article linked to below I think provides the most balanced view I can find so far.

http://thebmc.co.uk/smartphone-apps-handle-with-care

A poor navigator with a smartphone is probably no worse or better than a poor navigator with a map and compass.

HOWEVER, psychologically, the beginner hill walker thinks that technology can magically get them out of trouble, when in fact it usually can't.

What is really needed is map reading skills, whether you are reading the map on a screen or reading it on a piece of paper doesn't matter that much. If you can't interpret what the device (or map) is telling you it is a waste of time having it. This assumes the device has a relevant map on it. 30 years ago I took a joke photo on a hill top holding a "Little Chef" location map of the UK. It was a map and I could read it, but it wasn't relevant to the use I was putting it to.

My view is that battery life and "outdoor" robustness is a problem with smartphones. Cases help and carrying some sort of backup battery can help, but they are still pretty fragile. I am sure that more robust units will be developed. But people will probably not want to buy them as they will look "chunky".

A paper map is just a piece of technology, it's just "low tech" and it's been around for ages so we kind of don't think of it that way. But maps have their own limitations. They can get damaged, blow away or more likely turn to mush when they have not been waterproofed.

Mapping based "Outdoor GPS" units are a different story. When combined with good map reading skills these can be very successfully used as a primary navigation system, with paper map and compass backup. You must have that backup skill and you must practice it once in a while or it might let you down when you need it. It is almost certainly safer to use a mapping GPS to move quickly in a whiteout on the Cairngorms than it is to stand around for hours and hours doing complex micro navigation, potentially getting cold or benighted. Although, I would always be checking that the ground was doing what I expected (slope angle and direction etc.) just to make sure I was happy it was indicating position properly. That is just one extreme example I know.

I love maps, I love the art and skill of traditional navigating. I teach navigation and the first thing you teach is map reading skills. Once I think people can do traditional map and compass navigation I will bring in GPS units and explain the pros and cons.

I've even played with Android based smartphone apps. So I am not doing this from a position of ignorance.

So in summary the technology isn't inherently bad, but a lack of operator skill, lack of understanding of the limitations, all coupled with a lack of a valid backup strategy will lead to issues. I often say "A lot of people out there don't know what they don't know".... I try to stay away from the word ignorant as it has a lot of other connotations. Education is the key. Anyone want to figure out how to get that across?

Hi, can I rejoin this interesting discussion with a comment that is similar to one I posted for another item.

Earlier it was correctly said that “maps can blow away or disintegrate”, implying that the user would be in a similar situation as a GPS user who lost whatever it was they were using. I disagree!

I know myself that while relying on a GPS (even with the 1:25k map displayed) I gradually lose the level of concentration I would have while using a map and compass in poor weather. It therefore means that the extent of my ‘map-memory’ and general awareness has been reduced. That of course may be a personal failing but I suspect it is not just me; though Gerald in the previous post must make more effort than I do.

If the GPS which is being used fails for whatever reason - it is a bit like having your group leader [who has been doing all the navigating] suddenly disappear. Unless the user has been concentrating [not chatting away with a mate] and is fully aware of location it is difficult, though possible for a competent navigator to relocate using map and compass.

A good navigator who has lost a map and even a compass could using ‘map-memory’ at the very least get themselves off the hill – though maybe miles from the transport. It used to be called ‘self-reliance’.

I read in a post on Grough that according to Ed Cooke [?] “I have a theory that it is in the interest of tech giants to make us as empty headed as possible so they can sell us something to help.”

Gerald has provided a pretty balanced comment.
GPS is not useless in the hills - it's a useful supplement to a map if used correctly.

GPS battery can deplete yes, but that's due to carelessness - not an inherent problem with GPS. My Garmin etrex runs for 24 hours on a single set of AA batteries.

The same carelessness could lead to a map getting soaked and ripping up, or blowing away.

It's worth noting that this group were stuck in low cloud with poor visibility - there's a chance they still would have been in difficulties with a map - it can be difficult to take bearings in those conditions with a map alone, without using pacing etc.

What I don't understand is why they didn't just find a spot near the summit and spend the night? They had camping equipment for their trip? Or was that waiting for them at their destination?

a few valid points raised, in my opinion i like what Chris has to say, may i add if MRT/Police had the same technology as the fire service, like where i work and we are heavily involved in rescues in mountains, cliffs, mud and ice etc locating anyone who puts in a 999 call in from a mobile phone can be located and pin pointed to the control room's mapping system. Reading a map is all good and well for saying where you are, working out a safe route away but if you lose conciseness at least after the call is made they know where you are!
A good example we had, was when some tourists walking through fields we're scared and climbed up a try to escape some bulls, they then dialled 999 and we located them within minutes, they had no idea where they were, no map etc.

Before Mountaineering [hillwalking to Alpine style ascents of the big hills] was subsumed into the marketing term Adventure Activities it used to be that part of the tool kit included 'self-reliance'.

Now we climbers are regularly described as Adventurers who seem to need other people to get us out of problems.

In his book ‘The Mountains of My Life’, Walter Bonatti wrote, “The unknown is a valuable component of adventure. Facing it puts you in direct contention with your own doubts and worries. Confronted by the unknown, difficulties expand and your limits contract. But it takes very little to reduce or even abolish the unknown – a tiny radio transmitter or some similar device carried during a climb may seem a small thing, but metaphorically it is like playing poker with nothing but aces in your hand”.

Come on folks; real adventure not marketing adventure!

Yes, commercially it is important to get people out on the hill and using GPS even if many of the people buying the units, as Gerald said, "don't know what they don't know"

Articles and reviews about GPS devices at some point usually state that the user should also take with them a map and compass and know how to use them. This statement is easily lost on someone keen to believe the claims made by manufacturers. Those writers should freshen and emphasise the statement by at least explaining ‘why’ every time this almost hackneyed phrase is used.

The GPS and phone companies don’t bother to mention paper maps only promotional copy similar to the following from three of the large ones:
. . . all essential information you need in order to navigate to your destination and back home safely are available right from your wrist . . . the xxx is with you, however you choose to explore . . . it has some of the most advanced navigation technology available

With ‘some of the most advanced technology available’ why would some uninformed person even think about a map and compass, never mind learning how they can be used.

Bang to rights Ian - I fear that not enough people are reading authors like Bonatti and that Mountaineering history is fading from importance.

My ML course taught navigation using map and compass. The use of GPS was mentioned as something that "could" be used, but was not recommended. As has already been mentioned map memory is very important. All to often people rely solely on a GPS, then cannot tell you where they are. Whereas with a map, you can at least point to something tangible.

Gerald, an excellent comment. I don't agree with the following though: "my view is that battery life and "outdoor" robustness is a problem with smartphones. Cases help and carrying some sort of backup battery can help, but they are still pretty fragile. I am sure that more robust units will be developed." I've been using an HTC Desire year round in the Scottish Hills for the last three years and on a three month trip on the Pacific Northwest Trail, during which it rained almost the whole of the last month. I carry the phone in a transparent waterproof case and have had no problems. On the 3 month trip and on 2 week trips here in Scotland I've carried spare batteries, which solves that problem. If you want a tougher phone there is the Motorola Defy, which is designed for the outdoors and which has had good reviews. I'm happy with the Desire.

I haven't found using a GPS causes any problems with concentration on the landscape but that's obviously subjective. Most of the time when walking I don't look at the map often anyway, whether GPS or paper. The small smartphone screen does mean you can't get a large view compared with a paper map, which is why I only use it as a back-up. Recently though I've been using a Nexus 7 tablet in the hills, with ViewRanger, and the much larger screen is very useful.

Hello Ian, just one thing. I was not intending to imply that a person who loses the use of a map is in the same pickle as someone who loses the use of a GPS. I just wanted to point out that they are both "technology" and both can fail you. There probably will be better contingency strategies for loss of map than loss of GPS.

I completely agree with your point about keeping in contact with your surroundings. You definitely do that better with map and compass and I would personally always use them as first choice in 99% of circumstances for that very reason. But, and it's a big but, when you need to move fast in very poor weather, particularly in winter conditions when hanging around can cause problems, a mapping GPS will allow you to make rapid progress. Just don't fall into the trap you describe of letting "it" become your group leader!

I firmly believe that we should encourage the use of traditional skills first, precisely because of the fact they "connect" you to your landscape. GPS should be used as a backup, particularly for speed or relocation.

Trouble is I'm a bit long in the tooth so I have navigated in the mountains for a long time before there was any option. Younger (or sometimes older too) people just getting into hill walking will not listen if you "rubbish" their wonderful expensive technology. Instead you have to explain that it is wonderful, but that the art/skill of traditional map and compass work is actually just more satisfying and enhances their day out because of that greater connection to the landscape. I've rarely failed with that approach, apart from one or two dedicated "tech heads".

But the biggest single difficulty comes back to what I said before "Many people don't know what they don't know".

It's also not particularly useful to consider putting on "health warnings" on devices. Because, in my experience, many of them start up by displaying just such a disclaimer and it is promptly ignored.

It keeps coming back to Education and I'm afraid I don't have an answer for that one.

Look out for the first pair of Augmented Reality glasses out on the hill. I suspect it won't be long! Then people will have the landscape, with names of hills and features projected in front of them as they walk along, even if it is dark or misty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_reality#Head-mounted

I woudn't want this, but they are not aimed at me, they are aimed at the Playstation Generation and they will love them!

Hi Chris, I have been over to your blog and read the comments on the Nexus tablet.

I can see you have been very successful using these types of devices and your personal usage case is very compelling.

I'm rather undermining my own case by admitting that I even bought my wife a Motorola Defy (because she had drowned two ordinary phones).

Maybe I should look at it all again. I get nervous after seeing all the cracked and broken screens I've seen friends and family with.

I suspect the main thing that is missing out of all of this discussion is that you are an extremely competent "mountain person" who chooses to use these technologies, but you could use more traditional systems of navigation.

The fear is that these technologies can give the impression that you can get into the hills with less skill, so they encourage people who might not be able to navigate to rely on them, because they think "you don't need to know how to navigate if you have a GPS/Smartphone", when in fact you still need to know what you are doing.

Back to the Education thing again.... I think I've now said Education three times..... better be careful, we all know who said that three times in a row.

Chris, the concentration that I refered was needed when navigating in thick mist and rain or snow. In those conditions most of us would have to regularly look at the map.

I've just followed the pointer in Gerald’s previous post and discovered that the Chris in these posts is the Equipment Editor of the TGO.

You must excuse my ignorance, but I don’t usually follow the celebrities of the trekking world.

It might have been informative, for me at least, for you to have mentioned a professional vested interest at the start.

I just get out on the hill for a walk so clearly I am out of my depth, I’ll say goodbye.

Also Chris any decent standalone GPS works off a number (generally 3 minimum) satellites originally used, and some still, by the US military which ensures a somewhat better signal than a (most) phone gps work on relay from masts plus many smart phones batteries last not long on GPS, take the iphone. (i believe this to be up to date but it may not be)

Gps batteries are easier to replace on the hill and the units tend to be much more rugged, especially to being dropped or water damage

This said in the right hands some specialist phone GPS maps are very useful and can be used to great effect I think that MCS are on about google maps being used not a gps app, which isn't suited to the hills.

However there is no substitute to good map and compass skills and either in poorly trained hands is often the cause of many MRT call outs

PS to last post: - but I'm a bloody good navigator!

Gerald it was not your comment about 'losing a map' I was refering to - it was in an earlier post.

Margaret, I don't have a 'professional vested interest' in this. I have an interest because I don't like to see incorrect information given out, especially on important topics. As far as my work as a self-employed outdoor writer goes (I write for TGO, I'm not an employee) it makes no difference whether I think GPS phones are good or bad.

Rich, most smartphones have the same GPS software as standalone GPS units. They don't have to be specialist ones. My HTC Desire is a bog standard model. They work exactly the same as any standalone GPS (I've tested them side by side). The battery on my Desire is as easy to change as on any standalone GPS I've tried. Of course you can't change the battery on an iPhone but have to carry some sort of charging device - that's one reason I don't have an iPhone. Battery life isn't as good as some standalone GPS units but is as good as others - this of course depends on the phone.

Chris, you are clearly into your GPS and Smartphones but can you not see the sense in one of Gerald's comments:

"The fear is that these technologies can give the impression that you can get into the hills with less skill, so they encourage people who might not be able to navigate to rely on them, because they think "you don't need to know how to navigate if you have a GPS/Smartphone", when in fact you still need to know what you are doing."

There have been a number of articles in grough recently which tend to indicate that there is an issue with people who only having a phone with them, or people who have both a phone and a map but they are still getting into diffuculty.

Ian, I certainly agree with Gerald's comment. That was true for GPS when it first arrived and for the first mobile phones. Both those were and are assumed to provide safety without any need for skill by some people. And there have always been people who carry maps and compasses but don't know how to use them.

What I don't know is how to get through to those people who, as I said, don't take courses or read outdoor magazines, books and websites.

I like GPS smartphones and always carry one these days. I still do 99% of my navigation by traditional map and compass though.

At the risk of getting techy here :(

Firstly, a Smartphone can have benefits over a dedicated GPS unit in that it can connect to cell networks (if available) which it can use with regard to navigation. However, connectivity software does vary and some phones may have more limited options.

Battery life has been mentioned a few times in the posts. Someone said earlier that 'the level of concentration required when navigating is subjective'. In a sense battery life is subjective if the actual amperage of the battery is excluded from the discussion.

If most features are turned off and you are only using calls, text and GPS then battery life will be reasonable – depending on the phone and the size of battery of course. This is good because it would be tricky, with cold hands in poor weather, to keep the rain or snow away from the delicate electronics if the battery needed replacing.

What if you’re not frugal with your phone amps? If your phone is also your data centre, entertainment hub (music on the go) and the multi pixel camera is being used with the occasional photo being sent home, then the battery will not last long.

What if you are not aware that all your apps and the many embedded apps on your phone are regularly calling home to download updates? Yes you can stop them, but a phone that decides an update is more important than your current navigation is not good. Yes it shouldn’t interfere, but we all know computers. A new update could easily introduce an inconvenient random reboot or worse, a software error.

Now, how many people have downloaded an anti Malware app to their phone and keep it up to date with both updates and scans. A Smartphone can be a target of malware as well as computers – but then, it is a computer. Malware can, unknown to the user, interfere with the smooth workings of the software.

Probably nothing of what I have described will happen to a particular phone and all will be fine. However, I remind myself of the age old advice, ‘Keep it Simple Stupid’. So probably a dedicated GPS unit that is only concerned with your navigation would be best.

Oh yes; remember to take a map and compass and know how to use them. :)

Ian, I agree completely with Gerald's comments. The same thing happened when the first GPS and first mobile phones arrived. The problem is how to get through to these people who, as I said, are very unlikely to read outdoor websites, magazines or books.

As to my liking GPS phones, well, yes I do and I usually carry my smartphone. But I do most of my navigation with a paper map and compass. I certainly think all hill goers should carry and know how to use these.

Neil, some good points. As I've said, turn wi-fi and phone off to conserve battery life. Putting the phone in airplane mode is a good way to ensure it doesn't try and do any updates.

By the way I have anti-virus/malware on my phone.

Not sure how to get the message across, but I wonder if the following scenario vaguely describes what may be happening once a newbie has decided to head for the countryside.

Firstly, few if any retail outlets promote the sale of maps and compasses in the way GPS units and the Smartphone are marketed, through glossy adverts and creative web sites. So a map and compass, if considered at all, appear to be a bit last century.

GPS units are presented as having, “some of the most advanced navigation technology available.” So the newcomer is immediately thinking about how much they will have to spend to get hold of one of those ‘amazing’ things. After all, ‘I need to have the best kit if I’m going out on those mountains’.

At some point after the purchase he or she may think, ‘I don’t really see the point of taking an old fashion paper map with me, even if the guy in the shop said it would be best. Anyway, I’m not sure I know how to use one’.

Or, without going anywhere near a retailer’s sound advice about maps, they just head off with their Smartphone and its GPS. Thinking, ‘well it’s the latest technology, so I’ll be fine’.

I maybe stating the obvious!

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