Dorothy-Grace Elder and Paul Cunningham during the Newsnight Scotland discussion
Mountaineers are demanding the BBC puts the record straight after a Newsnight discussion in which a freelance journalist called for access to Scotland’s mountains to be restricted.
The programme, which was aired only in Scotland, used rescue statistics which gave a misleading picture of deaths on the mountains, the Mountaineering Council of Scotland said.
The debate between presenter Gordon Brewer, mountaineering instructor Paul Cunningham and journalist Dorothy-Grace Elder, a former Scottish National Party MSP, was prefaced by statistics drawn from official data collected by the Mountain Rescue Committee of Scotland.
Ms Elder said the MCofS should ‘get tough’ and should say ‘don’t go in bad weather’. She said the situation was ‘madness’. The programme was broadcast before Friday’s Cairngorms avalanche which killed three more people, bringing to 10 the total who have died this year on Scotland’s mountains.
The MCofS said it has asked Diarmid O’Hara, editor of BBC’s Newsnight Scotland, to put the record straight following last night’s programme.
“The debate discussed a number questions relating to safety in the mountains following ‘calls from certain quarters to restrict access’ to the mountains during winter,” the council said. “Unfortunately Brewer did not specify from which ‘quarters’ the ‘calls’ originated.”
David Gibson, MCofS chief officer said: “We welcome any debate which raises the profile of mountain safety. Clearly interest from the media is always helpful in bringing such issues to the attention of the public.
David Gibson: spoke to Ms Elder before the programme
“Unfortunately the discussion failed to provide sufficient clarity concerning relevant statistics, which are detailed in the Mountain Rescue Committee of Scotland’s Annual Statistics Report 2011.
“The programme correctly stated that there were 52 fatalities in 2011, but omitted to mention that 31 of these related to non-mountaineering incidents; in the prior year there were a total of 45 fatalities of which 16 were mountaineering and 29 non-mountaineering.
“Rescue teams also responded to 158 non-mountaineering incidents in 2011 – 194 in 2010. The piece also failed to recognise the financial contribution to Scotland’s mountain rescue teams made by the Scottish Government which was £310,000 in 2011 to 12.
“Clearly any fatalities which occur in the mountains are regrettable; however these occur against a background of increased participation in mountaineering activities which in 2011, according to Scottish Natural Heritage Statistics, saw 7.2 million individual visits to the hills for mountaineering and hillwalking by Scottish residents alone.
“According to VisitScotland’s research 55 per cent of Scotland’s visitors come for the landscape and 41 per cent of visitors to the Highlands went for ‘hikes or long walks’.
“Against this background, and at a time when the Scottish Government is seeking to improve public health through increased activity, and so avoid a burden on public spending through funding for the NHS which in many cases seeks to put right years of inactivity, calls to restrict access would appear to be out of all proportion to the issue at hand, if indeed such calls could be enforced.
“Restrictions on access would also be contrary to the provisions of the Land Reform Act (Scotland) 2003.”
Mr Gibson said he had spoken to Ms Elder at length during a telephone call on Tuesday, prior to the broadcast, and explained these statistics. He added: “I also pointed out that mountaineers recognise the international participation statement which ‘recognises that climbing and mountaineering are potentially dangerous activities and that participants should be aware of and accept these risks and be responsible for their own actions and involvement.’
“We hope that in future the BBC will seek to provide better information concerning matters related to mountain safety and ensure that the public is more accurately informed.”
The Newsnight Scotland discussion can be seen on the BBC iPlayer for the next few days by readers in the UK. The piece starts at 15 mins 20 secs.
phil jones
17 February 2013Please, don't let the lunatics take over the asylum. Ms. Elder displayed a breath-taking ignorance of mountaineering, and an arrogance to say,"we need to protect these people".
Mountaineering is about self-reliance and the acceptance of risk and personal responsibility for ones own actions. To suggest that the MCoS should put up tough health warnings to deter mountaineers would be simply a farcical idea were it not for the fact that she appears to see it as a first step in the Nanny State restricting the freedom of the individual for his/ her own good.
David Bingham
17 February 2013Phil, I couldn't agree with you more!
Ian Rudd
17 February 2013I completely agree with Phil. All of those that go to the Hills accept the risks which exist even in the Summer. Those of us that are serious about the hills go there because of this challenge. We like the flora and fauna. It is man's nature to explore. I am sick of armchair warriors trying to tell me how to live they are the people that stop Britain being Great again. No law will stop me going into the hills when and where I like.
heidi
17 February 2013mountaineering is one of the few things left to us where we can make our own decisions and get away from the idiocy of health and safety
Dave
17 February 2013Phil hit the nail on the head. What we need is protection from the ignorance and interference from these so called "do gooders".
Tina
17 February 2013I totally agree with all the above comments.
She was totally ridiculous, I couldn't believe her ignorance and arrogance.
As someone who lives "south of the border" I found her very insulting, yes, we may have to drive that wee bit further but credit us with some intelligence.
Charles Britten
18 February 2013Sadly, the broadcast media seldom get out of their big city studios. They see the mountains as nothing more than something 'out there' and dangerous that is only news when a tragedy happens.
Then they start reporting on obesity and the lack of exercise many are getting without a trace of irony.
Ian Jones
18 February 2013Why stop at restrictions in the mountaineering world? There are thousands of deaths on the roads every year. We should enforce a blanket ban on all motor vehicles, aircraft, electrical devices and all adventure sports. There have also been far too many deaths at sea the last 6,000 years so let's ban all shipping too. Stay at home and be safe!
Margaret
18 February 2013Don't get too upset everyone, this type of thing has been going on for decades. Currently it's 'self promotion time' for D G Elder - something which seems to be fashionable in all areas of society, including mountaineering.
Over 30 years ago a Scottish Chief Constable wanted to 'stop people going to the hills', because of avalanche danger. Bill Murray was asked what he thought of that and replied, "I can only assume that the gentleman was referring to someone other than myself".
Steve
18 February 2013Good point Ian, although lots of accidents and deaths occur at home. Think of all those sharp knives in the kitchen and naked flames on the hob, it's a surprise we're not all nervous wrecks, shivering in the corner wrapped in bubble wrap! Even in your bed you aren't safe, lots of people die in their sleep!
I like to take calculated risks, the mountains are one of the few places where you are fully self-reliant, if you make a mistake, you can only blame yourself. I like that, it makes me feel alive!
Shaun S
18 February 2013Whilst talk of restriction is a redundant discussion because it simply will not happen, education must be a priority in the way forward, people must be made aware of how to guage conditions on the hill, mountaineering is not just about climbing. It encompases so many things before you even get to or out from the route. Anybody undertaking mountaineering in the Highlands in winter should have a basic understanding of snowpack formation and relevant weather implications on that snowpack. Basic Avalanche awareness can save your life, Too many people are going into the hills in Scotland without the necessary winter skills to be safe, the SAIS reports are there for one reason, both the areas in question had "considerable" warnings against them, in 2008 we did Dorsal Arete on Coire nan Lochan, a mixed route, we deliberatly avoided using Broad Gully as a descent route, and skirted roud the rim. A day later 2 climbers were killed descending Broad Gully in an Avalanche.
These are tragic events, but in the case of Avalanche, how many are needless incidents that could be avoided.
JUDY YOUNG
18 February 2013I received a phone call out of the blue on Wednesday, asking if I would be willing to give an interview for BBC Radio Scotland. There was only one reason for this and 2 days before the 3rd anniversary of my 18 year old sons death on Creag Meagaidh I declined without hesitation. The ladies at work picked up the pieces and I continued my day as a primary school teacher. Their timing was undoubtedly bad but the call was an intrusion into my personal life they thought they had the right to.
Each and every death in the hill since February 2010 has brought pain to my life. The pain I feel for the families and friends of those lost is real enough. The pain it brings to my brother who spent years in RAF Mountain rescue recovering bodies of climbers, who then had to cover his own nephews body as we waited for the sea king to collect him from the mountain side must be even harder to bear.
So out of 2 women, Dorothy-Grace Elder and myself, who has more call to close the mountains, to restrict the visitors to the scottish mountains? To save mountaineers from suicide missions, as she put it. Yes I'd agree. Me.
However, in the last 3 years, I have returned to Scotland and faced the mountain that took my sons life, walked in the Cairngorms and taken groups of young people into the Lakes in winter conditions. I have also raised £14,800 for a local Children's hospice in my sons memory by climbing Kilimanjaro. In fact I was on my way to my latests winter walking experience on 15th Feb - the 3rd anniversary. Winter walking is harder now than before. The gremlins that I carry with me are heavy and slow me down. But I do it I do it because of the freedom, the company and the stunning scenery. I do it to give other young people the same enjoyment my son got from the days he spent in the hills. As we walked up the Old Man with crampons, ice axes helmets, ropes, shelters and more warm dry clothing on saturday we pointed out the people doing the same route in trainers and jeans with little extra kit, no maps, compasses let alone the technical equipment. My brother continues to go to mountains and has now introduced his own son to winter mountaineering this year.
Dorothy-Grace Elder is one of these do gooders who hasn't got a clue about what she is talking about. i'm sure there are far more damaging 'hobbies' people have, that have a far bigger impact on the cost to the country than mountaineering. You don't get many obese mountaineers!
Maybe I should have put my point across on the radio but it's still very hard talking about that day and previous interviews have been twisted and I have learnt my lesson through past my media mistakes.
Accidents happen.
RIP to those who dare to live, may you climb forever.
Ross S
18 February 2013This isn't really the Beeb's fault, its Dorothy-Grace Elder's!
Margaret
18 February 2013Yes it comes back to her. I tried to post earlier that her comments are nothing new, similar have been made over the decades. Good for 'self promotion' I expect.
Back in the 1970s, I think, Bill Murray's reponse to a Chief Constable who wanted to close the hills because of avalanche danger was, "I expect the gentleman was referring to someone other than myself."
Dorothy
18 February 2013Come on the MCofS...fight back against the 'wishy washy' website insults from someone who's probably never climbed a hill in her life...
Any deaths on the Scottish hills are tragic but we all know the risks and people like Ms Elder should not be allowed to sensationalise winter mountaineering.
R Webb
18 February 2013DGE is a dobadder who is leaching on our sport and our tragedies for personal gain. A faliure who has not come to terms with the fact.
Of course there is as much chance of banning golf as climbing, it is part of the national character and you meddle at your peril.
JohnBoy
18 February 2013I think a 'Good Mountain Day Out' in the company of convivial professional guides/mountaineers (probably with lots of hot chocalate) would open her eyes as to why we do it. Education is the key to safety and understanding, whether thats over enthusiastic winter climbers or ignorant journalists. Just saying... :_)
Simon
18 February 2013I think Grough should make changes to what they report on. Look at the list of news stories, and they seem to report on every other call out by mountain rescue. How about reporting something else for once. I appreciate that you don't sensationalise but you do over report accidents, adding to the general impression that outdoor pursuits are somehow more dangerous than driving.
Martin
19 February 2013It was Wainwright who pointed out that if you fell over in the High Street and broke an ankle, with the ambulance coming to take you to hospital, you'd be lucky to get a line in the local paper, while doing the same thing on a fellside made the news. True. But of course a broken ankle, and the task of rescue, is a rather different matter at four o'clock on a winter's afternoon two thousand feet up a snow-covered hillside.
I think the more accurate comparison would be to see is stats can be gained for a comparative field sport such as rugby union. Maybe no deaths - but I bet as many ankles are broken.
Can I assure some of the contributors that not all BBC people are metropolitan nannies. And note Simon's comment!
OutdoorsAndy
19 February 2013Sorry Simon, I find the fact that the mountain rescue stories are put on Grough insightful and interesting. They have led me to a greater understanding of the accidents on the hill and to what people are getting wrong.
Thanks Grough, please don't change.
Top comments everyone; hill safety is an often discussed topic on here, normally attached to such stories.
As ever, it's often about inexperience. Sometimes however, its just down to bad luck.
I still maintain the most dangerous part of any UK mountain trip is the car journey. but hay, that don't make a dramatic story!
In addition, the media is not to be trusted. In any story I have awareness of the true facts, in both national and local media, they have generally got it woefully wrong. As the Levelers song goes, "half truths now and then..."
We also live in a negative news culture, so looking at the health benefits, (both physical and mental), would not be entertained.
Gavin
25 February 2013Well said Judy Young! As someone has already said above Dorothy Grace Elder had clearly decided she needed a bit self publicity. What a twit!