The Wasdale leadership wish to thank all the support received today from our team members, our neighbouring teams, the six search dog handlers, the Royal Navy (Sea King) and Cumbria Police. This was a major multi agency multi team rescue. As the search progressed through the morning with little sign of the missing pair of walkers, no further mobile contact and growing concern for their condition due to the very cold conditions and extremely challenging swollen beck crossings, the Wasdale team activated the Lake District Search and Mountain Rescue Association's silver button to alert by pager all 12 Cumbrian teams of the need for additional resources from around the county. This new process, part of the LDSAMRA major incident plans, worked extremely well including a teleconference call joined by 11 of the 12 team leaders to discuss the potential escalation of the search. Fortunately the lost couple were found just before mid day in surprisingly good health considering their predicament. They were both extremely cold, tired and wet through after their ordeal. The incident was closed mid afternoon when all team members from the six teams were safely of the hill, 19 hours after the initial 999 call.

Richard Warren
WMRT Media Support

Oh no...here we go again?

Can someone please, please tell me since when has been lost a reason for an MR callout when there is no threat to human life or injury.

Surely this, yet again, shows that an awfully large (and growing) number of people are venturing out totally under prepared and with the illusion that MR are there to come and play hide and seek when they get lost

Sounds like an excellent effort by all those guys and girls at the MR again!

I know it sounds harsh however i do agree with Grumpy old man ! Get better prepared guys !

Well done MR, would love to be fit enough to be MR.

There is of course hypothermia Grumpy Old Man. Being lost, in the dark, wet, and cold, is a perfectly good reason to call for help...and hypothermia is most certainly a threat to life.

@GrumpyOldMan The fact that this callout was upgraded to Silver suggests that the rescuers felt there was a threat to their safety. It's very easy for you to judge from the safety of your armchair. Mistakes happen. Weather conditions worsen. It could happen a bishop.

I do have sympathy with Grumpy Old Man, with the heightened profile of MR some people do seem to see them as a first option rather than a last resort. Surely, even at this time of the year, walkers should have sufficient gear to survive on the fells for 24 hours at least.

Well done to all involved. Very bad conditions. Grumpy Old Man, in some ways I understand your POV but if you were the person who'd talked with them on the phone would you refuse to help? What if it had been relatives of yours? You'd like to think that all would be done to help and find them.

The one thing I do wonder about - they were eventually found alive and well and up and walking on the summit? Where the hell had they been all night and why on earth didn't they get the hell off the mountain the night before? Any marked path will do - just get off the mountain.

@adrian9585: For the record, I used to be an MR team member but had to bin it when I moved so please don't try to tell me about hypothermia

@Stadler: There is nothing in the report to suggest that the couple where in any sort of danger or that it was upgraded to Silver.

@Not too grumpy: err...yes. Our team did refuse to go out to people who were in no apparent danger just on the wrong side of the hill and were looking at us as a taxi service.

If weather conditions worsen, you should just be able to deal with it, whether that be through sound judgement (changing route, going back down) or my having the skills (navigating and hill craft) and equipment (adequate clothing, food etc).

@Another Grumpy Old Man: perfectly summed up

Agree with Grumpy old man.

Stadler- 'mistakes'? Idiocy more like. Obvioulsy they didn't have a map and compass or any sort of hill skills.

It's almost every day we read about this stuff. Why are people so stupid?

It used to be called 'being self reliant' with a variety of hill skills to call on; nor did it involve the local rescue team.

Being able to use a mobile phone is not one of those hill skills.

This was a couple of people, scared and confused, on or near the top of Scafell Pike in "Atrocious Conditions".

I for one trust the judgement of the CURRENT Team Leaders, not former MRT members who are not in possession of the full facts!

No one is questioning the judgement of a recue team leader.

What is being questioned is the judgement of the 'many people' who find themselves in this type of situation, which invariably leads to a call for assistance.

It's easy to call people idiots for not going into the hills equipped or not having the skills to read a map & compass , but with all the skills in the world , fear & panic will eliminate them, having been on broad crag myself when the cloud dropped in a matter of minutes I know it's not a nice feeling, but it did teach me that my navigation skills needed upgrading . So rather than castigate these people for being idiots(pretty harsh) as long as they learn from the experience & polish their navigation skills, they can get back out there & enjoy our fantastic hills, & give our fantastic MRT a well earned break

Thanks Heidi and Ian512

@Not too grumpy: Maybe we're both guilty a little of jumping to conclusions and not being in possession of the full facts. Where does it say "Atrocious Conditions"? Read it carefully, it says "poor conditions".

Where does it say "scared and confused"?

Bottom line is they were lost, didn't have the hillcraft to cope and used the soft option. Nowhere does it say they was any risk to life.

I think you need to get the facts Grumpy Old Man, read Richards report and perhaps try to judge less and understand more. As one of the team members raised for this, I don't even have ALL the facts, and certainly wouldn't base my decision to assist or not on what I THINK I know...if able, you assist. This could very easily have turned into quite a different scenario very quickly, hopefully they will learn from the experience, they sure as hell won't by being criticised or left up there.

For the record, I am in one of the 12 teams and was called upon to assist, and I still didn't have all the facts. They could very well have been hypothermic, which if you know your CasCare can be a threat to life...even the faintest possibility of danger to life or even discomfort through injury is reason enough to initiate a call out. MR is based on compassion for others, not judging from your armchair and criticising, and frankly your "Oh no here we go again" comments, assuming people are idiots, and suggesting that calling out for help was the "soft option" leaves me speechless, that you were ever in MR is beyond belief with those attitudes. You don't know these people, you don't know the circumstance they were in, and you most certainly don't have all the facts...and even if you did you are in no way entitled to make the assumptions & comments you have.

If your lost on scawfell pike in cold & adverse weather conditions there will always be a risk of life

@Daws: "If your lost on scawfell pike in cold & adverse weather conditions there will always be a risk of life" ......really???!!!

I've been momentarily lost in cold & adverse conditions several times and sorted it out myself and never felt any risk to my life.

Again it's about self reliance. If you're on the hill and don't have the wherewithal to be able to survive for 24 hours should you get lost/benighted then the simple answer is you shouldn't be there.

There will always be a risk to life - it is a potentially dangerous activity. I think GOM meant there was no imminent risk to life.

I posted the following comment a few months back:

Commercial interests and governing bodies seem to be in a dilemma between heavily promoting the activity as a sport, while at the same time having to regularly remind people that it is in fact, unlike most sports, a dangerous activity.

When taking part in a sport you can usually call it a day whenever you wish. Though come to think of it; is that not what many people now do on the hill, call it a day by calling the local Rescue Team.

Our charitable objects are to save life and alleviate distress. Our mission to locate, to treat and take to a place of safety. My ethos is not to judge as we all make mistakes. I can assure you that they were distressed and anyone on the fell that night and the following day was very wary of the becks we crossed or failed to cross due to the deadly power of a beck in flood. Idiots, no, lucky, yes. Happy to go out for them, yes. Willing to go out again and again, yes.

Daws- I really don't think you know an awful lot about being out in the hills in bad weather. Like Grumpy Old Man, I have been momentarily lost plenty times in the hills in bad weather, but I manage to sort things out myself, without letting 'fear and panic' take over. Mainly I am just annoyed with myself. I have certainly never felt any risk to my life and I go out in pretty dire weather sometimes. But I am extremely self reliant and know how to look after myself up there

@Ian512 ...thanks for adding clarity to my comments !!... imminent being the key word I missed out. Your other comments are so nicely and eloquently put.

@heidi...thanks for the support. I was half expecting abuse about getting lost in the first place, but then again, anyone with any experience will have been lost. Those who say that they haven't are simply lying and most probably think adverse weather conditions are always a threat to life!!

A risk to life in the hills isn't just about being lost or having no navigation or hill craft skills or experience ,my point is in adverse weather even the most accomplished hill walker with bags of experience can slip & hurt themselves

Fair comment Daws, but these guys hadn't slipped or hurt themselves. I fully appreciate that accidents happen to even the most experienced, and there but for the grace of God go I!!!

When I first started in MR, my motivation was to go help fellow hill-goers/climbers who'd had a genuine accident.

One of the points I'm trying to make is that calling MR has become a soft "get out of jail free card" when it isn't necessary.

Also a fair comment, as said I've massive respect for MRT & fully appreciate the work & service they provide us, it dose annoy me when you read of people using them as a 1st option rather than a last resort , even in poor weather the hills are a fantastic place to be & with a bit of common, good decision making & as we've all said navigation skills people can still get out there & enjoy even in adverse weather

I'm inclined to agree with GOM on this one.

Did they even have maps and compasses?? Surely, even if you are tired and disorientated, would you not think to follow one of the 'swollen becks' down hill? Common sense?

If they didn't have the hill craft skills to help them out of trouble then it begs the question should they have been there in the first place? And also if conditions were that bad, why was a sensible decision not taken during the ascent to retreat to lower ground as the conditions were worstening rather than press on to the top despite being unable to get themselves down safely? Or don't people think about keeping an eye on the weather any more......?!?!?!

For the record, I am in one of the 12 Lakes teams referred to, and was called upon to assist, and I still didn't have all the facts. They could very well have been hypothermic, which if you know your CasCare can be a threat to life...even the faintest possibility of danger to life or even discomfort through injury is reason enough to initiate a call out. MR is based on compassion for others, not judging from your armchair and criticising, and frankly your "Oh no here we go again" comments, assuming people are idiots, and suggesting that calling out for help was the "soft option" leaves me speechless, that you were ever in MR is beyond belief with those attitudes. You don't know these people, you don't know the circumstance they were in, and you most certainly don't have all the facts...and even if you did you are in no way entitled to make the assumptions & comments you have.

Must be very scary up there looking down from your high horse Grumpy Old Man. Did you give all your casualties a dressing down after each of your rescue callouts?

I'd say those walkers could easily have died out there, especially in bad weather and especially in bad weather if they didn't have a compass (even if they had a map). Clearly their mobile battery died or didn't have a signal too as MR lost contact. Its easy to say 'get off the hill' but if you drop off of Scafell Pike into say somewhere like Great Moss you could wander for ages down there firstly without losing any further height or even finding a track and, from memory, the valley would naturally lead you southish which would mean maybe 4 or 5 miles of ground to cover before you hit a semblance of civilisation, and thats if you're not wandering round in circles and sort of know what you're doing.

If you can't get the ball get the man is it?

Read what is written here and on other grough posts and try to understand what is being said.

Voluntary Rescue Teams are under much more pressure than before and have to respond to many situations where, with a bit of 'simple' hill competence they would not be needed.

What is required is an in depth look at why this is happening. I have my own opinion, but I won't get on my 'high horse' if it offends.

I think the point some of us are trying to make is that there are some of us who go to the hills with the skills and competence to look after ourselves. That's not to say an accident won't happen, but I, for one, would rather crawl off a hill with a broken leg than call out the MRT. Then there are some folk who are unprepared and incompetent and when they get lost (not surprising if they don't have a map or any idea how to use one) and get a bit cold, they call out the MRT, who, of course, go and look for them. These people seem to have a total disregard for their own safety, or the safety of the fantastic rescue teams who go to look for them, often in the middle of the night and in atrocious weather. And, to the non-hill-going public, it gives us all a bad reputation. I live in the lake district, and how often, when hearing of a rescue just because people were lost or stuck on ice when they had no crampons etc, have I heard people say 'well, people shouldn't go on the fells when the weather is bad'. I struggle to get them to understand that for some of us, it's no big deal and we can take care of ourselves up there

I think everyone's in agreement that the MRT is a last resort rather than a first option, but i think that the MRT are called out to more genuine needs than situation we've been discussing here

Personally, I would rather be called out to assist what might be considered by some on here as unnecessary call outs than not get the call and be attending a worsening scenario, or be carrying a body off.

This was - if I read it right?

A call out that could have involved 12 teams - a major incident?

Hypothermia - May?

Cold,wet and lost is not a major incident.

I would trust the old men of MR rather than some of the new leaders!

I too ex MR - and this is as stated previously is becoming a bit of a joke and I am afraid that the MRT's are sometimes to blame - mountains and molehills come to mind and why are they thanking the Police - they are working on behalf of the Police.

Afraid it is a sign of the times is when a team needs a "media support" that was the job of the team leader.

Some serious armchair know-it-alls on this topic. Maybe there's a reason you're all "ex" MR personnel.

For info temps on the tops have been unseasonably low until recently, with some snow on the tops until last week. Add wind and rain and you have a hypothermia risk. 2 missing at risk persons were judged to be at serious risk of harm.

But sure, the old men of MR wouldn't have bothered, right?

I can't believe that the MRT are not getting anything less than 100% respect , trust their decision making every day of the week

Disgruntled young climber - you assume that are "Arm chair know it alls"?

Just because we state that we are ex MR - this does not means we are not active on the hills - a previous poster mentioned he had left due to moving - the same for me - and I am at present in a different country!

We bring our experience to this debate something that can only be learned by being on the hills - something I do for a living.

"Fortunately the lost couple were found just before mid day in surprisingly good health considering their predicament."

Mountains and molehills???

Tell me about your background?

The important point here is that there are people taking to the hills without even the most basic level of mountain skill.

See the many similar incidents here in grough.

Also, in the best interest of Rescue Teams, there should be an investigation as to why this problem is increasing.

Agreed Ian. I understand that was the original point being made - I suppose my issue the other day was that a lot of armchair victim-blaming goes on regardless of the facts on forums and comment pages.

It is becoming far too commonplace nowadays for people to get stuck. The issues are miriad. Everyone has a car, everyone has a smartphone, it's too easy to be lured without proper preparation. And having a phone makes it too easy to call for help.

I wasn't intentionally making an ad hominem remark above. I do know that the teams only go out when a person is at risk. I'm not sure how behaviours could be changed - but it needs to happen somehow.

Errrrmmm...And an other Grumpy Old Man...Yes, you can get hypothermic in May, very easily. Cold, wet & lost could very easily turn into a major incident if left unattended, and I for one would rather attend a slightly wet walker than a casualty, or worse still be stretchering a body off the fell.

As one of the members of one of the twelve teams called up for this, I had very little info...yet there seem to be a plethora of people on here less involved who are much more able to have an in depth opinion and apparently even more knowledge of the situation than people who were involved directly...where do you glean all this info, I'd love to know.

What really surprises me, is how judgemental and pious some of you ex MR personnel are...maybe there's more of a reason such as relocation, not realising hypothermia is a reality in May etc. that you are no longer members??

Inform and educate...not judge and put down people you don't even know.

Oh, and you might want to read up a bit (And an other Grumpy Old Man!!!) on who Richard Warren is...his involvement with Wasdale MRT, and his wider involvement with LDSAMRA and the heli's...before dissing the role of 'media support

So glad that I started such a rumbustious debate ….. very healthy! 
@Disgruntled Young Climber …. Less of the “armchair” youth!! ….and, erm….maybe yeah, some of “the old men of MR wouldn't have bothered “ because it really wasn’t really bothering about!
@ And an other Grumpy Old Man!!! …totally behind you there mate: MR is running the risk of becoming hoist on its own patard
@ Adrian: “Inform and educate...not judge and put down people you don't even know.” ….I applaud your philanthropic, altruistic and humanitarian stance, but then you do exactly the same yourself when you say “maybe there's more of a reason such as relocation, not realising hypothermia is a reality in May etc. that you are no longer members??” …. Surely you’re judging me?
LOL….this is such good fun ….it’s like chairing a Sixth Form Debating Society!

Precisely, not very nice to be judged is it? I'm glad you saw the point I was making, and that I was indeed judging you. I hope you have found the time to catch up on your homework re: Richard Warren and his position/role in MR, lest you should put your foot squarely in your mouth by insulting a long serving team member, one of the 'old men' that WOULD be bothered, because it IS worth it...(not sure where you get THAT crazy idea from?!? LMFAO!!)

I'll leave you to your armchair warrior antics now, I'm afraid I won't be able to contribute any further, the great outdoors is calling...if you deem I have the necessary skills, experience and gear to go out to play in the hills that is?

I'm glad it's such good entertainment for you though...hey, wait! did you see there was another pointless rescue over the weekend? It had lots of young team members, some dogs, and a non-casualty found fit & well!! I'm sure it'll be 'reported' on Grough, or Cumbria Crack...you should add your informed comments for all the ill prepared lay folk to read.

See ya round the bend! ;-)

Thing is Adrian, Ill prepared folk don't seem to read these debates. Yes, hypothermia is a possibility at this time of year, but if people went to the hills properly equipped then they could look after themselves. That's all we are trying to say really

So if 'ill prepared folk' don't read threads such as this why bother whining and moaning on about them? It serves no useful purpose to sit at home slagging people off, this isn't a debate...it's just an ego massage for some of the posters.

Time would be better spent quietly suggesting & advising people on how they can stay safe in the hills...our team does a lot of this at events, collections, and support for other groups like Scouts, DofE etc...and you know what? It works. It might be a slow process to filter through, but it does work.

And that's my final say...as I'm off to spend my day off doing just as I suggest.

This is a bit like current politics with emotional personality attacks; rather than asking, as heidi points out, why are so many people with inadequate skills taking to the hills.

Asking this question in a wider forum, along with the answer, may help Rescue Teams.

People with inadequate skills will get better the more they go out, it's unfortunate some people get caught out but this is part of a learning curve , none of us went out top drawer with the map & compass when first venturing out into the hills it comes together from making & learning from our mistakes, which I'm sure everyone can relate too

People need to start somewhere , only get the skills with experience & hill time

Yes, but the key word is 'somewhere'.

It is not really sensible to start (if some are) learning the basic skills on a high mountain; unless in the company of an experienced person.

Without the expense of an organised navigation course it is fairly straightforward to learn the basics of navigation in a local park or countryside close to home. Then a move on to some local hills or rougher countryside with simple escape routes will expand skill and experience. A session or two of Orienteering would help to expand knowledge.

This progressive development of skill and experience can then lead to higher more remote areas.

I think one of the problems is that many people don't realise there are skills they need to learn to allow safe and enjoyable travel in mountain areas.

The comment below was posted on behalf of someone who took part in the rescue.

Well that seems to have generated some ill informed comment, Hypothermia, in May??

Please find attached a picture taken during the incident, yes that is snow on the Ill Crag plateau area, wonder if that is cold enough for hypothermia to be a potential problem then?? Maybe snow is warmer in May?

Ooops! of course the armchair "experts" were.... not actually on the central fells....but comfy in their armchairs, where hypothermia is not often a risk.

Given the level of equipment the 2 walkers were believed to have, hypothermia was a significant risk factor.

Cheers,

A Search Dog Handler

Please allow me to repeat my earlier comment:

The important point here is that there are people taking to the hills without even the most basic level of mountain skill.

See the many similar incidents here in grough.

Also, in the best interest of Rescue Teams, there should be an investigation as to why this problem is increasing.

Bob- as we are trying to say. If people went to the hills properly prepared they could deal with this weather. As you say 'given the level of equipment they were believed to have, hypothermia was a significant risk factor'. We are also trying to ask, why people go to the hills with no idea of how to look after themselves up there.
Do you have any idea why this could be and what can be done about it??

The real issue is that these people were in difficulty & needed help, which was given without question, Hiedi you keep going on about "looking after yourself up there" but how many times do we read about people being injured or worse who had years of experience & sufficient gear needing help off the fells? . The hard fact is anyone who goes up there could need help one day be it off the MRT or a fellow walker , it seems the MRT thought it necessary to go & assist due to the weather so nuff said

And round and round we go

Bottom line is these people needed help which the MRT provided no questions asked & they deemed important enough due to adverse conditions . Heidi keeps mentioning "i /we can look after ourselves up there" but how many times in the past has somebody been injured or worse while being in the hills & it comes to light that they had years of experience & the correct equipment for the weather coditions? Fact is everytime we venture out into the hills we run a risk ( some larger than others) of needing help being it off the MRT or a fellow walker,if helps needed then surely the correct decision is to ask for it ?

Yes, those people needed rescue team help. Why?

It is traditionally accepted that, in the words of the Llanberis team Chairman, 'The team does not aim to criticise or seek to attribute blame on anyone that it rescues.'

No need to remind everyone that team members are volunteers, have to undertake fundraising to cover at least some of their costs and into the bargain some, if not all, may lose wages.

Therefore, is it unreasonable to expect 'all' of us who journey in the hills to furnish ourselves with at least a basic level of skill and modicum of self-reliance?

Yes, accidents can and do happen to well equipped, experienced people, but the point is, they are ACCIDENTS. Being badly equipped and having no navigation skills, then getting lost and cold is not an accident. It is avoidable.

Those people moaning have yet to be scared witless - happens even to the most experienced.

The decision to 'go' lay with the MR Team Leader. I say well done - we should all remember the MR guys are all volunteers (one assumes?). Let them get on with it and long may they do so. Sounds like a good training run to me.

And don't forget, pennies in the boxes where ever they may be sitting.

Such a common debate on here, but the statistics on increasing MRT call outs say it all.

For what’s its worth, on the facts available on conditions, I think MRT was correct to go to assist.

BUT, agree that hill craft is something that is increasingly missing. I am not saying it was here, there is simply not the facts to assess this conclusively, (but would seem so given their location and the little we know).

This is based on what I see on the hills on a regular basis. The condition and the quality of kit speak volumes about many hill goers preparation, as does the lack of navigation equipment.

This seems part of the issue, the modern outdoor MFI retailers, false price pointing and calling things after mountains which they should never be taken anywhere near. On line shops that simply have no advice to give, unlike many shops on the continent, which have mountain guides as sales staff. Advice, but not 40% off, you can’t have it both ways.

Then there’s the myths that seem abound in the Noddy Walking world, that we live in Greece and not a relatively cold and very moist country with generally unpredictable weather. I could go on…too much time in central heated houses watching telly etc..

We need education and skills teaching, but how this is to be provisioned is a hard one. As already alluded too, most people do not want to invest in walking, (either time or money), And until this culture changes then, MRT will be busy and warehouses will continue to sell tat…

Enjoy your outdoors time!

Yes Ian that is a fair comment

Those 'moaning people' who are posting appear to be fairly experienced and in gaining that experience they will have had to cope with a number of 'scared witless' situations.

Also, they are certainly not, I say again, not 'moaning' about rescue teams.

Please read the posts - there are an increasing number of people going to the hill without the experience or skills which would allow them to solve most of the problems they will meet. So when a problem arises, they find they can't cope and simply call on the nearest team to solve that problem for them.

I am asking why is this happening.

Also, I wonder why many people seem to happily expect team members to drop everything and rush to their aid. 'Sounds like a good training run to me.' Really?

Many current hill 'users' have little or no concept of self help.
Rescue teams are not in the old business of assisting fellow climbers and walkers who on occasion get into difficulty. Now they are having to pick up all the varied problems created by the vigorous commercialisation that drives the activity.

I think it was L Terray back in 1971 who said:

“Whatever the handbooks recommend, or the educational vested interests claim, mountains remain deadly dangerous to all who frequent them. If they were not so . . . there would be the merest sport, with its teachers, occasional practitioners, organisation men and promoters with cash register eyes.”

Ironically he continued:

“Fortunately the range and risks of the activity remain so great as to resist the threatening exploitative element.”